The overall Innuos service I can’t fault either. I had neglected to do some firmware updates, and for some reason it had gotten ‘stuck’ when I tried. Nuno (the R&D Director) arranged a time with me so he could remote access my Zen Mini and sorted it out. He’s in Portugal, I’m in HK. Lovely folks at that company, I always make sure I go and say hello if we happen to be working at the same shows.
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Hi Robert, another observation from the peanut gallery here at the Roon forum. It’s clear your challenge is not the budget. However, before throwing money at perceived issues, I would highly encourage you to slow down a bit and understand how Roon works (best) and how all your pieces inter-relate and then build with that knowledge to the best end result.
My suggestion: no more DACs or Roon core/servers for now. Get a real endpoint, separated from your core by ethernet, hooked to the best DAC you have, then as directly connected to your preamp without a lot of XLR-to-RCA conversions going on (unless you have a true converter, not just something that drops 1/2 of the balanced signal). Sure that means you have to leave your computer on as Roon core all the time, but it’s only temporary, until you get Roon sounding to your satisfaction, then you go to a dedicated Roon appliance as the core to avoid that…that last step will not improve sound 1% but will eliminate the need to have a PC running.
Once you have an endpoint, separate from the core, you feel should represent Roon’s best practice (no processing, low electrical noise) then you can start to tweak DSP and room correction to your liking. Too many variables at once is both confusing and a waste of money.
Absolutely worthless. It’s the same review over and over – “This piece doesn’t match my reference piece but punches above its weight. Fabulous.” A good way to read gear-porn and see what’s coming out, but the opinion part, totally worthless. And The Absolute Sound actually published a 4-piece article on digital audio that literally concluded that FLAC files copied from one hard drive to another lost their fidelity over generations of copies. Incredibly ludicrous. So as you can see, I’m not a fan of their digital knowledge. Good gear porn, that’s all.
Have fun Robert and welcome to the journey!
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Thanks for the advice, and points well taken. For now I’ve ordered the Matrix-X SPIDF which my fellow community members at PS Audio highly recommend as a significant improvement given PS Audio provides two i2S ports, one of which is occupied with a connection to my DMP player and it sounds FABULOUS. So there is some magic going on with this device. I have begun to experiment with some of the settings in Roon, starting by lowering newsroom by -3.0. That helps though the soundstage is still, I find, quite recessed and not as present as removing Roon from the loop. Clearly a dedicated music player/server down the road that supports Roon will help me on this journey, and in the meanwhile I‘ll explore ways in which I can optimize SQ within Roon itself, provided it doesn’t tax my brain too much. 
Thx again. 
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Hi Robert - sounds great! I’m jealous of all your gear!
Just to be clear, when you have separate endpoints from the Roon core (the “server”), what machine you run the core on will have ZERO impact on sound quality. This is where “bits are bits” is absolutely true. Thinking otherwise is superstition, not engineering.
The machine might not produce heat, might use less electricity, might make less fan noise, whatever. But you will never get a bump in sound quality by switching out the core unless you’re experiencing hiccups or other evidence of lack of processing power.
I just wanted to make sure that point is clear - getting a Roon appliance or other Roon core is for the purpose of having something always on that you are comfortable with. Except as it might relate to a lack of processing power (dropouts, hiccups), you will not otherwise get a bump in sound by replacing the core. Others may disagree, but there isn’t any objective basis for it.
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So to be clear, you are of the belief that no device- be it an UnnuOs, an AURALiC, or Wyred players will enhance the SQ of my files? Does this imply that a stand alone player/server such as Aurender might somehow provide a better experience, albeit without the Roon ecosystem? I’m actually open to this solution as I can still enjoy using my Lyngdorf endpoint with Roon and use Aurender for my serious 2.0 DSD DAC endpoint vía the Bryston.
Thx again
Depends on what device you plug your DAC to. My belief is that the Roon core, other than as relates to sufficient processing power to avoid hiccups or drop outs, does not influence sound quality. The same bits come out of a fancy fanless case as come out of a 2014 vintage windows 7 PC. No “veil lifted off “ possible. Those bits go into the network the same no matter the device.
That does not apply to the endpoint where you plug in your DAC. There it is theoretically possible for EMF or electrical noise to affect something, especially on a lesser DAC. At the endpoint, I do care about the device.
I dont recommend huge investment in digital rendering gear besides a good DAC. A lot of that is overbuilt and gets obsolete pretty fast. The 2 box Roon solution is far more efficient. Generally I view those items as audio bling or for folks who don’t spend the time to really learn what matters and what doesn’t. Sorry fellas!
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Okay, point well taken and as everything in high end audio, there are those who insist The cables matter and others not so much. There are those who insist we ignore specs and simply listen to “hear a difference.” To me that is what matters most but I’m always open.
As for my DAC, I’m convinced I have an extremely good and well built, American made DAC in the PS Audio DSD. Im awaiting delivery of this cool new Matrix-X SPIDF2 which will convert the USB to i2s and enable the DAC to perform considerably better, per The reports of my fellow DSD users. I’ll know more by this weekend just how much better it sounds.
Regardless, I have no option but to connect the line out via high end Nordost interconnect cables to my Bryston BP-17. That Roon even RECOGNIZES the existence of the DAC surprises me, as it is a non-Ethernet model. I can only imagine it is because my Mac Mini resides in the same local network so it “sees” the source where the files reside and everything else in the chain is picked up.
There’s digital and there’s analog. My beef with the cables discussion is when folks use analog logic on the digital side. There are places where cables matter at least a little. Specifically here, if you understand what the Roon Core is doing, you’ll understand that it cannot possibly make a difference, and no one has ever (on this forum) provided a scientific rationale for any possible difference.
Roon/RAAT recognize USB DACs through their drivers. You could build your own, and if the driver software provides a name for the device, it will flow through to Roon. You can also name the endpoint in Roon if you prefer something else.
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That makes perfect sense and thanks for the explanation. It’s because the Core resides on my Mac which is connected to BOTH the internet AND the endpoint ((DAC). I think I’m getting it. 
The DAC is not an endpoint unless it has an endpoint, like the Bridge II, built in.
Here is my chain from Roon Core to my DAC:
sonicTransporter i9 w/HQPlayer Embedded (Ethernet) > ultraRendu (USB) > Matrix SPDIF 2 (I2S) > DirectStream
The ultraRendu acting as an HQPLayer NAA (Network Audio Adapter) is effectively the endpoint. With HQPlayer Embedded, Roon is not involved with getting the music off the Core. HQPlayer Embedded handles that using its own Ethernet protocol.
I have tried more expensive endpoints and none have sounded better than the ultraRendu. It is a electrically very quiet purpose built computer with only the hardware it needs to do its job. And that hardware was designed specifically for audio.
Roon by itself sounds great with my chain. But, it sounds noticeably better with HQPlayer.
You don’t need to buy a multi-thousand dollar endpoint for Roon to get fantastic sound.
My PS Audio DSD is absolutely an endpoint. See screenshot. MacMini>DSD>Bryston BP-17 cubed>Krell DUO XD> Dynaudio Confidence. That’s my chain.
UltraRendu sounds interesting so I’ll check it out but not keen on HQP as it appears not very user friendly.
Thx!
When you plug a DAC into a Roon Core via USB, the DAC is not what people refer to as the endpoint. Technically, the Roon Core is acting as the endpoint. You keep fighting people that want to help you to…
Anyway, you keep saying that HQPlayer is not very user friendly. It may not be, but is not hard to figure out and is simple to use once configured. People here will help you if you let them.
Ok, I see. So essentially even though I have two ways of listening to Roon - one being the MP-60, the other being the DSD DAC, I effectively have just one endpoint?. I’m certainly not trying to fight you or anyone in my pursuit of knowledge, but, that had not been my understanding, so thanks for the clarification.
Perhaps over the weekend I’ll do some extensive reading an HQP.
Thx
“Endpoint” in Roon speak is the device that connects to the DAC. It can be a computer, a Pi, a network streaming appliance that is Roon ready, or even a DAC that has an ethernet port and is Roon ready. If your core is directly connected to the DAC (by USB for example) then you are using the device as both the core and the endpoint. While many people find that to be fine, if you do notice issues with sound, then the first thing to try is to use a separate endpoint that isn’t doing anything else.
Thank you for the explanation; my Mac Min>DirectStream DAC isn’t doing anything other than what my DAC does, which is among the best out there. And my MP-60 connected bia Ethernet likewise does nothing at all. I had a premium installer over today to install the new REL 212/SX and we did a comparison between Roon and iTunes on the Mac Mini played by Pure Music. He is veteran, seasoned audiophile as am I, and he was BLOWN away by the gap. In his view, as well as mine, Pure Music just destroyed Roon in SQ. Again, I love Roon interface. They are best in breed for sure. But we both consider it “Mid-Fi” and not Hi-Fi.
All this shows is that your Mac Mini is not a good Roon Endpoint 
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Robert, here’s an analogy for what you’re saying: let’s say Roon is a kind of vegetable. Some vegetables you can eat raw and they taste great. But Roon needs to be cooked to be edible, or at least it’s best cooked. People here are giving you different recipes about how to cook Roon.
In response, you keep saying “I tried Roon raw and compared it to lettuce, and lettuce is just way better than Roon.” You’ve said that 10 different ways. You have a lot of people at your house eating chewy, fibrous, raw Roon and agreeing that it is not as good as lettuce, which is always eaten raw.
Fine. Comparing Roon in its un-optimized state to something specifically designed to be a one-box solution will yield those results. Roon has a learning and optimization curve. It’s your decision if you want to ascend it or not. But we all already know that Roon can be chewy and fibrous in its un-optimized state.
Are you using ASIO or WASAPI drivers or are you running through system audio kernel? (and is that a thing with Macs - I don’t know the answer as I am a Windows guy). That is another way to crapify the sound coming from a computer.
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I still have Pure Music installed on my Mac Mini.
Pros:
I always found it to be a lovely sounding player - by some margin my preferred iTunes based player (I think I tried them all). It made using iTunes a bearable option.
Cons:
It sounded even better in standalone mode, but I found it then became far less stable.
Also, it became increasingly less stable as a solution for me as iTunes received updates.
I don’t think there has been an update to Pure Music for about 3 years. (I believe it is still not compatible with Catalina).
I do not find it hard to believe that comparing it to Roon in the way you did, that Pure Music sounded better.
On the other hand, I very recently introduced a very cheap (£100) mini PC to act purely as a Roon endpoint running RoonBridge and found it did improve the Roon sound quality - much to my surprise.
For the avoidance of any doubt on terminology, “endpoint” here means the last bit of equipment in the chain running Roon. So my MacMini runs as the Roon Server, it sends the processed data over ethernet to the RoonBridge on my miniPC, which is connected by USB to my DAC and thence to my active speakers.
There is nothing wrong with Pure Music and iTunes if you love the sound. If you want to give Roon a better chance, without splashing much money, try adding a little miniPC into the chain and using it as a RoonBridge.
Enjoy the music!
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+1 @AVid_D
I left Pure Music behind in 2015 when Roon became available. I view it as an ‘either - or’ software not something that would be incorporated into Roon.
I didn’t leave iTunes behind though. I still add the CDs I rip using XLD to the iTunes library. Mainly because iTunes is a pretty good metadata editor. But also because Roon does a good job of reading - but not changing - my iTunes library. If I ever decide to not renew my Roon subscription, iTunes will be there, ready to play.
I can’t recall if Pure Music followed some of the playback settings in iTunes. iTunes can set individual track equalizations, levels, etc. Perhaps the difference between Roon and Pure Music/iTunes is that some track level customizations set in iTunes are being read and used by Pure Music but not by Roon. Is this possible?
I hope Pure Music will continue to develop the software for the newest iterations of Apple Music.
In any event, the OP reminded me of what a terrific add-on Pure Music is to a basic iTunes setup.
James, you make two very excellent points here. Your vegetable metaphor is among the best I’ve ever seen deployed by anyone, and I’ve spent my like invoking them in my sales and marketing career. So that is a beautiful metaphor, and thanks
Conversely, you completely validate my point. I don’t even KNOW what these drivers are! In fact, I’ve never heard of “the ASIO or WASAPI drivers!” And frankly, I don’t want to get into the weeds like this. As an Apple guy, I just want things to work. Yes, I can go to engineering school in my old age and learn the kind of stuff that is second nature to people like you. But I don’t want to. I just want something thst I can install with ease that “just works.”
So let’s leave it at this: I respect that there steps in the kitchen a chef can take to take those raw veggies and season and cook them in a way that transforms them into fabulous dishes. But this chef, me, has managed to find some great cooked vegetables that someone else has cooked for me and delivered to my doorstep and all inside to do is lay the guy. And if a Roon is listening, if they worked with a company like Pure Music and charges willing customers a one time premium fee to add it into the Roon experience, I’d HAPPILY pay as much as $200. I just want easy.
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