ROCK vs Mac Mini in terms of audio quality?

The difference is that in the 80’s and early 90’s, when CD players were relatively primitive, jitter mattered quite a bit, as there was limited buffer between the CD bits and the DAC.

These days, there are about half a dozen buffers in-between the digital transmission and the analog audio that prevent any of it from mattering. Especially not at the network/LAN level. It’s simply impossible for it to matter.

TCP/IP transmits data via a series of buffered packets, with error correction and checks for accuracy in both directions. The data is encapsulated inside those packets. The timing of the packets is irrelevant, even the order is irrelevant. Often, packets are sent out of order or retried if one fails. That is commonplace and normal for the protocol. It’s all irrelevant.

Once the packets get to the computer, they’re decoded and reconstructed into a perfect series of bits, the same as would be if transmitted over WiFi, ethernet, serial cable, copying them to a USB drive and carrying the USB drive to the destination computer, or writing them down and painstakingly typing them in the destination computer in a text file. The computer doesn’t care, they’re all completely identical bits regardless of how they’re transmitted. This is guaranteed by the protocol, and is mathematically provable. If it were not mathematically perfect, then not only would audio be impacted, nothing in computers would function—that’s how certain it is.

Once on the computer, those bits can be sent to the device actually doing the audio conversion. Often this is an optical or USB DAC. The way those devices work is via another buffered data transmission method, a simpler one but the same concept. Optical audio is slightly more strict on order and timing, but the result is still buffered and guaranteed to be identical to the source data. USB is even more reliable and guaranteed, and there’s a chip on either side of the wire that ensures that’s true.

Once on the DAC device, then the DAC chip is responsible for taking that stream of bits—again, mathematically guaranteed to be identical to the samples on the Roon server—not just maybe or probably or by theory, but absolutely impossible to be different—and converting it to an analog signal.

This is where the quality can start to be impacted, and I’m personally not a believer in such nonsense as all DACs sounding the same or all that. Your DAC is doing an analog job, and can absolutely have nuances and impact the sound. That’s where the quality matters. But the digital bits up to that point? Does not matter one bit how they get there, so long as the DAC chip is implemented properly to read them with the right timing and design. Which, in 2023, nearly all are—it’s a solved problem.

The network in particular has absolutely no bearing on the sound, and again I’m open to many many quality possibilities that impact the sound, but this is not one of them. It’s simply impossible. This is one place where if you can hear a difference, it’s guaranteed to be placebo, and you need to revisit your assumptions.

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From my experience, the people who are always right never use any arguments except for argumentum ad hominem.

As I said, it is an empirical question. In the beginning of the CD, no one believed in jitter because it was deemed to be theoretically impossible. But there were differences in the auditive experience.

If you want to see for yourself, get a Netgear GS308 for 20 bucks and try it out. Test your theory empirically. Otherwise, your theory is just philosophy.

You are not the first one to post this video (and others by Hans). The factual claims in it (as far as they go) have been debunked countless times before. If person X has a proven record of being wrong, and the same wrong statements are repeated, it’s not an ad hominem to dismiss it with “oh this again from person X”.

This is obvious because otherwise we never could move on from a person repeating proven-wrong statements.

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It is ad hominem because no argument is made except calling him militantly ignorant. Would you like to be called millitantly ignorant?

My theory isn’t philosophy; my knowledge is based in my extensive experience in networking and electrical engineering, as well as lots of empirical experience with very real network hardware and digital audio transmission. I’ve tested different network hardware all the time; I have plenty of empirical evidence that there is no impact.

Anyway, it all depends on how it’s actually set up. If your cheap Netgear switch is powered by a cheap switching power supply and has a horrible noise floor, and you’re hooking your Core directly to a DAC via USB where the grounds are tied together, and the ground is tied to your analog audio and amplified; then sure, the horrible noise floor might be connected all the way through from the bad switch.

But that’s not what we mean when we talk about the quality being impacted by networking hardware. Nor is it the explanation that the video provides for why that digital signal transmission is impacted; the explanation in the video is nonsense.

Even in the case of noise from the switch power supply, the right course of action wouldn’t be to upgrade your network gear to some magic noise-free switch; it would be to isolate your audio from it entirely. Use WiFi for your endpoints, or optical for your DAC, and problem solved. Or just get a non-broken network switch at a reasonable price instead of one that introduces heaps of audible noise, if that’s really what it’s doing.

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If I were being militantly ignorant, I would want someone to let me know, yes.

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Do you want to have to debunk flat earth claims from first principles every time a flat earther repeats the claim?

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Tries, and fails. I have all the good will in the world for Hans, but I’ve never found him a reliable guide on audio technology. Remember that he puts up these videos to sell views to advertisers. Following his advice, one can wind up wasting a lot of money on shiny audio hocus-pocus frippery that can actually degrade SQ.

@Tristan_Harward’s explanation of “what’s going on” is much superior (and shorter!).

There are other posts all over this forum (and others) which explain in detail how he is wrong about things. He’s not always wrong, but enough that his guidance can’t be seen as reliable. He also seems to have fallen for a lot of the pure superstition around audiophilia. Not sure if he’s actually taken in, or just acting so for the sake of his advertising clientele (who would desperately like their marks, er, customers, to believe in that twaddle).

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It is not about arguing against it. It is about the way it is argued. Providing no arguments but attacking someone verbally is no proper way to argue.

Giving the explanation I gave is arguing. I could have just called you a “stupid idiot”, and that wouldn’t have been a proper argument, just an argumentum ad hominem.

As I said, try the Netgear GS308. I would say that paying 20 bucks cannot be considered “wasting a lot of money”, can it?

Because like I said, you are not the first one to post this video. How often do you expect people to repeat their factual critique?

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I started with WiFi; this solution is really bad because the stream can be interrupted by other radio signals that disrupt the WiFi connection.

I use a PrimeMini4 that is connected to a Silent Angel N8 that is connected to another Silent Angel N8 which goes to a Melco N100 which are all powered by Keces linear PSUs. The signal from the Melco N100 goes via USB to a Mutec MC3+USB which goes to a Lyngdorf MP-40. The MP-40 is connected to an AVM SA 8.2 that powers two B&W 802D3.

The first N8 audibly improves the soundstage. Black is blacker; more details are audible. The second N8 improves it further, but less than the first one. The Mutec improves it even more than the first N8.

The effects of the two N8 can be heard in my other two listening rooms as well with two completely different setups (one using Nubert nuVero 60, the other using Nubert nuVero 30, both complemented with an AW600 subwoofer). I could further improve the effect by replacing all of my old switches with Netgear GS308.

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I don’t expect people to repeat their factual critique, but I expect people to abstain from aggressive verbal behavior. Is this really so hard to understand?

As people obviously cannot control themselves and resort to attacking and debating each other and not the subject action has been taken.
Please think before posting, this is NOT Facebook!
Thanks for your compliance.

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It highly depends on the NUC version. My default threshold for turning off the fan is 50 out of the box. The previous was around 35 (I don’t recollect the exact number as I just installed it and forgot about it).

@Suedkiez, You have an EE8, do you think it makes a difference in SQ?

The things you know … I confessed this once or twice in Winter 2021 on this forum :joy:
I don’t think it does. I bought it during Covid boredom with the express idea of an “open mind” to see what the switch hype was about. Then I heard no difference at all (as I expected) and thought I’d leave it in for a while and try again just to be sure. Later I tried again and still heard no difference but left it to try once more after getting my new “highly resolving” speakers (instead of the slightly mid-range distorting Monitor Audios that I had). And then everything was wonderful with the new speakers and I left it alone because it worked fine as a switch and I have been too lazy and too busy to confirm and then probably sell it. I guess I should

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I had a NUC running in a fan less enclosure connected direct to my dac via usb, that is the worst scenario, just avoid that, avoid that with the Mac mini as well. I then ran the NUC to my switch in a cupboard with the NAS next to it doing the storage only, that was just fine with my DAC driven off a streamer in another room. I migrated my Roon server to a Mac Mini Pro M2 this year to run in the same configuration but also running my plex server and doing some other admin tasks, it works really well except Roon is a bit flakey on the Mad Mini, it seems to just fall over from time to time, it doesn’t do that on the last version I ran on my NUC. I have a remote admin tool to easily log in and restart Roon but it is still annoying.

Sound quality wise, just avoid directly connecting USB computer outputs to your DAC. I now run a Lumin with fibre connection to my switch. The streamer has a USB connection to my DAC, sounds great.

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Or get a good DAC and don’t worry about what is connected to.

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