Yes, it needs a huge library, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that I need access to the content via a subscription. Google gives me access to searches of millions of libraries, but I don’t have subscriptions to any of them to access the data itself.
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Yes, that’s right. If Tidal were to remove a non-paying account’s access to the data that allows Roon Radio to work, I don’t think I would have any reason to complain of unfairness. But Tidal has not removed that access, and so the current problem is that Roon sometimes stops playback when Roon Radio puts a Tidal track in the queue (when linked to an unsubscribed Tidal account). That seems to be a Roon bug. First world problems…
I don’t see how using knowledge of the world of music would help the logic make better use of your local music. It only makes sense if you can actually make use of that music.
That a feature is dependent on subsiding to a service is not different than using HQ Player. The feature is there but if you don’t subscribe you don’t get the feature. I don’t think it is unfair or objectionable.
But I respect that we differ on this point.
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The algorithms used by Roon are different - and the new Roon Radio algorithm is apparently much better than the old local library algorithm, even when constrained to just using the local library.
It does make better us of my local music. I assume the reason is that it can more “intelligently” pick music from my collection than when it doesn’t have access to “the world of music.” The difference is obvious, just in the two listening sessions I’ve done. The new Roon Radio is fan-friggin-tastic. I also love all the other 1.6 changes.
I admit that the unfairness of which I accuse is not bright-line obvious. A $20 increase in the monthly cost of the Roon experience rubs me wrong, especially since improved Roon Radio has been promised for a long time here.
If Roon can get the playback stoppage issue fixed, my accusation of unfairness is erased. Maybe that will contextualize the extent of the accusation better? Like I said above, I’m fine not being able to play music to which I don’t have a license. It’s odd that I have had to explain that repeatedly.
IIRC Brian said the opposite of that. The results over a limited library are not as good. I have read so many threads this week I may be wrong though. Work is needed to make it work over a local library.
I think of it this way…
Take a local seed track and find some cool music from the world of music. Great.
Why would you do that if you cannot play that stuff.
E.g here is a great track for you from the clever engine. Oh, can’t play. Best find another. It must limit the quality of the results.
What playback stoppage issue ?
The issue that Tidal won’t play because the user doesn’t pay for Tidal. He has however added his Tidal login details even though he cannot play stuff. It’s an odd scenario.
@Antonio_Bendezu…I don’t keep asking you to explain that. You said it was unfair and objectionable. Now you say it is fine.
The algorithm “dumb” Roon Radio uses to pick the next track from my own library results in much worse picks than the algorithm “intelligent” Roon Radio uses to pick the next track from the same candidates - my own library. Yes, the picks are more limited than with an unlimited library, but that doesn’t render it the same as the “dumb” Roon Radio. It is significantly better.
When Roon is linked to a Tidal account that has no subscription (yes, that is a thing), “intelligent” Roon Radio works. However, whenever “intelligent” Roon Radio picks a track that is not in my local library, playback sometimes stops. Other times, it just moves on to other suggestions until it suggests a track that is in my library - playback does not stop.
@ncpl: I never claimed that it was unfair or objectionable to not be able to play music to which I don’t have a license.
Most ML systems need to train on a huge amount of data (like millions of tagged images), but then can operate on tiny amounts of data (like a single photo).
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Well, if that’s the case, we are still in the training phase…
No doubt.
Though I’m also (purely guessing) that the UUIDs for tracks in Tidal and Qobuz also are playing a part in this. If the radio algo says, “Oh, after UUID X I should play UUID Y”, how’s it going to know what the tracks in a local library even are, much less which ones fit the model?
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Oh, yeah, I forgot to add this one:
- Where’s the nice catalogue of Internet Radio stations we were promised? Not in 1.6, is it?
Yes that’s my reading of it.
No. Roon 1.6 is not the end of development. Why does this upset you ?
It seems that it would benefit the training for all, including for those who pay for access to the Tidal catalog, if the preference behavior of Tidal non-subscribers was part of the data that educated the training, especially if that preference behavior was conducted with the full functionality of the Roon Radio algorithm. Again, I’m not suggesting that non-subscribers should be allowed to listen to Tidal tracks without paid subscriptions. That would be wrong.
Maybe my speculation about the benefit of such data is factually wrong, but it seems to make sense. I could see a 1000 track library doing the training harm, I suppose. I wonder what the threshold number would be for the training to benefit?
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I was excited about this vertical scrolling display you mentioned until I tried it myself.
Scrolling though I couldn’t work out which source annotations where for which album. It’s difficult to tell which album Roon is indicating is in my library or just in Tidal’s or both and whether it is for the album below or above. And then there’s the uneven horizontal dividers making it even harder to determine what’s going on.
And after spending two minutes writing the above post, when I switch back to Roon I am presented with an error screen (I am able to reproduce this error every time via the same search action and leaving Roon for a minute).
Andrew, it’s the prioritization that irks me.
If I made a comprehensive list of promised features by various members of the Roon team from the past of this forum that have never yet arrived, I’d probably be banned for life.
But it’s also interesting to see what does arrive as insight into the future directions of the product. For instance, the fact that the new radio is streaming-only makes me wonder if, when and if it arrives, on-the-go access will also be streaming-only? It would make things much easier for the Roon company. And other thoughts, like just how long private local collections will be first-class citizens that the company will want to support?
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I think the real issue that is affecting Antonio is that the new “Smart” Roon Radio not only uses “big data” to learn what to suggest but it also operates on the assumption that it can select anything from the “big data” that is the complete universe of music know to Tidal / Qobuz. All that “big data” resides on Roon’s servers.
How is the algorithm supposed to function when its choices for the next track are limited to tracks in each user’s local library? Would / Could they develop something that would suggest one track to one user but a different track to another user just because of differences in the two users local libraries. I suspect that does not make sense.
What Antonio and others are seeing now is that tracks to be played next are selected from the “big data” universe of all available tracks and that when an individual user does not have access to the universe of all available tracks the results can vary dramatically. Best case seems to be that there is a small gap between tracks if one track needs to be skipped moving on to longer gaps if multiple tracks need to be skipped culminating in playback stopping if too many consecutive tracks need to be skipped.
I don’t know if it makes sense to program in exceptions to change this behavior or if it is even possible. I also expect this is an edge case in the sense that most Tidal / Qobuz users are paying for streaming and will not have this issue.
Tim