- Use Roon as media server based on Rock OS. This is an audio optimized OS for Intel based platforms.
- Never compare internal renderer-to-DAC connections or SACD-to-DAC connections with external DAC connections like AES/EBU or even USB if you don’t know exactly how much efford the DAC developer engaged into these connectors. It’s easy to implement some very good clocking magic by I2S with internal connections - but not easy to develop a comparable external USB connect. The renderer needs complete control of the DAC chips clocking and a very good internal clock source for this purpose.
- USB is the best possible connection between renderer and DAC - if you take a lot of care on both sides of the USB connection to get rid of digital noise. Without this you should use AES/EBU or coax SPdif.
- The iFi Zen Stream is a very low end transport/renderer device. The entrance level. (In my ears the sound is terrible) Think about a DigiOne Signature, a Lindemann Limetree or a Lumin.
- Jitter is everywhere. Fight jitter as good as possible, minimum by reclocking at one point in the digital chain (close to the DAC). Most people cannot hear or are aware of jitter - but they can hear the difference if there suddenly is no or extreme low jitter.
- Keep devices separate and dedicated. A Roon-Rock server, a control device for Roon (PC or iPad), a separated audio LAN (isolated from computer LAN and/or reclocked), a dedicated renderer with network input, possibly a reclocker following the renderer, a DAC with all types of input (coax, AES, USB, BNC), a standalone CD or SACD transport. I know this does not help the TE, with his Marantz, but this is the consequent way. Otherwise live with some limitations. Sorry to say.
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Since the Zen in th loop sounds fine, I think the above eliminates the Marantz as being the issue doesn’t it?.
Today I moved HQP from the headless Roonserver i7 Mini back to my M1 Mini ( which is running the Roon GUI and other stuff) not sure it made a difference - possibly better, definitely didn’t sound worse.
Both the M1 and i7 minis are on the same generic switch - ultraRendu endpoint is on a Etherregen switch connected to the generic switch.
Doesn’t help with your issue but if you do move to a dedicated Roon server keeping HQP on the M1 probably won’t impact the sound (from my experience anyway).
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I have both a LUMIN and ifi stream and into the same Dac they sound the same, you have to spend more on a streamer is untrue.
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Maybe true in your digital chain. In my chain - and my ears - there is a big difference between Zen Stream and Lumin U1 mini.
And I’m not alone in this world with this experience.
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I have experimented a whole lot with streamers and Roon in the past. I have been using solely computers for audio playback since 1998 and I still have some old machines in the closet. With a good DAC I can hear zero difference between direct connection to a 18-year-old bog-standard PC (the oldest one I still have) and an Ultrarendu. With a lower quality DAC the differences are obvious but still a whole lot smaller than many sugest. The difference between a good or mediocre DAC is a factor 10 times bigger. The difference between a good pair of loudspeakers (and multi-subwoofers) and a mediocre pair of loudspeakers is a factor 100 times bigger. The difference between good or mediocre room acoustics with a good loudspeaker/room integration is a factor 1000 times bigger IMHO. It’s up to you where you want to put your money and what is of most value to you. I know where I would put it. Especially the right loudspeakers for the right room with some clever room treatment and multi-sub setup combined is a factor 10.000 bigger difference than any difference I have ever heard between streamers.
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And my wife would put it somewhere very painfull if I tried
“some clever room treatment and multi-sub setup”
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It all depends upon what is in your audio chain. A year or so ago, I tried out several different Roon Ready streamers that I used with the USB DAC in an Integrated amplifier. An Allo USBridge with a linear power supply sounded better or at least different to my ears than my existing streamer, but the difference was not significant I then tried a Pro-ject Streambox S2 Ultra and the improvement in sound quality was astounding.
Nothing is absolute in this hobby. You need to try things and see how they work with the rest of your system.
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Thinking I had similar issues with Roon and an OPPO 205 SACD player a few years back. The OPPO had a reference to Roon Ready in the doc with a code for a trial. That was my introduction to Roon and streaming music.
Started with Roon on a desktop with Wi-Fi to my router. Loved what Roon provided, library management, seamless integration with Tidal/Qobuz, easy setup for music in every room, etc. etc… It was fantastic for this old-timer, never knew such easy access to music was possible. I bought into it, lifetime subscription and a NUC/ROCK dedicated music server.
The OPPO has 7.1 analog outputs that matched the inputs on my Denon receiver. CD’s/SACD’s sounded very good with this setup and I was hoping to get the same sound with Roon feeding the OPPO.
That did not happen.
Had the OPPO connected to the server numerous ways but something was missing with each one. Roon Ready LAN interface worked well and sounded good but it was 2 channel PCM only. USB connection provided DSD/MQA playback but 2 channel only (no sub channel). HDMI connection provided Stereo and Multi-channel playback but PCM only. Nothing I tried sounded as good as the OPPO using its high-end DAC with CD/SACD playback.
The interface wasn’t there to make it work, very disappointing.
Moved on to a Roon Ready streaming MC DAC and found what I was looking for. I can’t easily A/B the sound because the OPPO and DAC use the 7.1 analog inputs on my receiver. It’s possible a MC switch will be added in the future but for now I’m happy with the setup. NUC to DAC via LAN, DAC to receiver via 7.1 analog, receiver with 7.2.6 speaker arrangement. Use the OPPO for Movies now.
I hope your path is easier, more productive and less expensive than mine.
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I didn’t realise that you were using coax from the Zen Stream.
Have you tried the Zen Stream into the SACD 30n over USB? I own a Marantz NA-11S1 streaming DAC, and it sounds at its best by USB (better than CDs played from a nice transport over coax S/PDIF, and better than any of its streaming options). As others have said there are easy and inexpensive ways to optimise USB (some not so inexpensive ones, too). Ken Ishiwata delayed the release of the NA-11S1, tasking the technical teams with improving the USB input. If his legacy lives on at Marantz this would probably be the best sounding of the digital inputs. I’d look at low cost ways of optimising Roon using your existing kit before looking at fancy DACs and (as I suggested above) streamers.
It’s interesting of course that dCS have switched to the Marantz/Denon mechanism for their latest SACD players (partly of course because Esoteric/TEAC decided to stop supply). As a disc spinner, I’m sure the Marantz is rather special.
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I always feel very sorry for guys that are not allowed to have any influence in home decoration. I don’t understand it either. Why do men have to live with pink furniture but can’t have any reasonable-sized loudspeakers for their own in the living room? My wife is very happy with my loudspeakers, she listens to music even more than I do.
By the way, my room treatment is completely invisible, so are the multi subs. Your room really does not have to look like a recording studio and it does not have to be filled with ugly big black boxes either, that is a very often made misconception.
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Thanks for all the very thoughtful and insightful replies. I remain a fan of Roon’s library prowess, it’s very special.
I have tried every option financially available to me over the past years to make computer based audio sound good to me. I2S, USB (tons of USB gizmos), Coax, galvanic isolation etc etc.
In my wee experience, having Roon entirely on the Mac Mini, and the MacBook before that, and the iMac before that, has not been satisfactory. The same is true for other software, not just Roon, though Roon has never been my favorite of those for sound. From a strictly sonic point of view, and to my personal tastes, I’d rank Mac based music software as follows:
- Amarra (otherwise a catastrophe)
- HQPlayer
- Audirvana
- Roon
- Fidelia
Yet none of them quite right. Why? I’m not sure.
The Marantz SACD 30n has been a liberation from all those computer based audio struggles. CD/SACDs, high res data discs, and direct streaming sans the computer has been such a joy. And I’ve loved being reacquainted with an old friend, the physical disc. Opening the case, inserting the disc, and placing the case on stand like vinyl folks do. Because of that experience, I’m not interested in listening to my local music any other way. So much of my life is dominated by computers and iOS devices, I’ve enjoyed being able to listen to music without a screen involved.
So that wipes out a huge element of Roon for me. No longer the desire to play local media via a computer - and not just for sonic reasons.
That said, I have the lifetime license and have enormous respect for what Roon provides and hope to bring it back onboard.
An audio rig is bit like making a soup. All the ingredients come together and then must satisfy a particular palate. The Decware ZRock 2 and CSP3 preamp (both tube) are due next month after a one year wait. I’ll revisit Roon/HQP then and see how the soup tastes, whether or not those new ingredients mix together better.
Last night I spent a couple of hours with Roon/ HQP listening to Tidal playlists. Within 30 seconds of switching back to the Zen Stream (which is a great device!) with Tidal Connect I could tell it was better to my tastes.
If Decware doesn’t move the computer audio needle, then a Nucleus, or SonicOrbiter, or ROCK shall be on order.
I’m not clear what the difference is between Roon Server, and Roon ROCK? And why ROCK might sound better?
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Roon Server is the actual Roon software that does all the music stuff. ROCK is a stripped-down version of Linux supposedly optimized for running Roon Server on NUC hardware.
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Well, strictly speaking, ROCK is a packaging of the Roon OS (the stripped-down build of Linux) and Roon Server (which has the Core and Output components of Roon).
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Meaning that the USB input in your integrated is too sensitive to upstream factors that the Streambox is able to control, unlike your previous streamers. I don’t understand why this is hard to communicate: the USB receivers is most DACs or integrated are mediocre, unable to reject normal electric noise from computer sources, as demonstrated by the fact that we keep fiddling with increasingly expensive sources to circumvent the corner-cutting of the DAC/amp vendors.
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How do these differ?
This ROCK/ Roon Server/ Roon Core subject is very confusing. Roon would do well to simplify these dynamics.
From this thread I’ve gathered Roon ROCK is the best for sound quality. I assume it is Roon that has designed ROCK with sound quality as the priority. Truck on over to the Roon Nucleus website and there’s no mention of Roon ROCK. Read their white paper and I only see mention of Roon OS, which happens to not match any of my original elements to seek.
Over at Small Green Computers they at least state Roon Server in the SonicTransporter specs. But isn’t Roon Server not the best for sound quality?
If Roon Rock is the gold audio standard set by Roon, then why do these two premium Roon music server products make no mention of ROCK?
The Nucleus is $1400 and purports to provide the penultimate Roon experience. Yet no ROCK. Is the Nucleus half baked, or is ROCK perhaps not the cat’s meow?
Goodness. What a marketing disaster this hardware side of Roon hardware is. One has to become an expert just to understand it. 
Total sidebar @Fernando_Pereira but, do you have an opinion of the USB implementation in Schiit’s Unison, particularly the one in the Yggdrasil? They, and many reviewers, have been very happy to crow about this particular USB implementation. I’ve tried SPDIF and AES as well as USB (all fed from a Pi2AES with a basic LPS) and find the differences discernible but not at the level of difference that bother me - perhaps my speakers are not resolving enough. So I use USB. But would be great to know if you have an opinion on whether they’ve achieved what they suggest they have.
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They have but there are some rabbit holes it’s better not to dive into.
Core = the thing that manages your library, endpoints, handles the streaming, DSP, etc. It’s the central part of Roon.
Remote = The thing you control Roon with
Endpoint = The thing that connects to whatever converts the Digital bits to analog (sometimes a DAC, sometimes a streamer, etc.)
To get a Core on the network you need to run Roon Server. They release Roon Server for Linux, Mac and Windows.
Another way to get a Core is to run ROCK which is Roon’s OS and includes Roon Server. There is limited hardware configures that ROCK runs on. Nucleus is a take it out of box, plug it in, get Core solution. Nucleus is per-installed with ROCK.
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ROCK is a DIY Nucleus. ROCK is a Nucleus running on an Intel NUC, that you build and set up yourself. Nucleus is plug and play, ROCK requires a bit of work (which shouldn’t put you off). But if saving a few hundred $ is not a big deal to you, buy a Nucleus. RoonOS is the purpose-built Linux operating system that both ROCK and Nucleus run on. One you buy and plug in, the other you build yourself. They shouldn’t (and don’t) differ much beyond that.
Neither ROCK nor Nucleus should make a difference to sound quality. They may make your remote snappier or your library performance scanning or running DSP faster.
Separating your core from your streamer is a “good thing” ™. Making sure your Core (ROCK or Nucleus) is connected to your cue switch via an Ethernet “home run” (1 cable with no switch or device in between) is a very “good thing” ™. Connecting your streamer via Ethernet instead of WiFi is a “good thing”. The connection between your streamer and your DAC is very important, as @Fernando_Pereira points out. Some DACs have a good Ethernet interface, some really expensive ones don’t and do better with AES or SPDIF.
There’s a lot here. But getting a different core is not going to help SQ, least not as I understand it.
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This is true if you have a poorly designed DAC (more devices than you think belongs in this category). The good ones fixes all crap you send to it (some DACs are really good on some inputs, but not all; some have great USB interface, most don’t… etc). Good ones does not equal high price (some of the really expensive ones are really good, but not all, and some of the cheap ones are good - but not all).
When it comes to streamers; usually the quality of the signal being sent out via coax or other outputs are according to price (but not always). WIth a well designed DAC with well designed inputs, you will hear zero difference between a dirt cheap and an expensive streamer.
I do however to simplify things recommend integrated Roon Ready streamer in a well designed DAC. Less devices, less cables, more likely to get great sound. Spotify Connect is also a feature to look for; Spotify will most likely never be supported in Roon due to politics (from Spotify).
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Depends how everything is connected. Maybe the DAC in the 30n is much better than the DAC in the Model 30 integrated. If the 30n is connected to the Model 30 integrated, then perhaps all digital processing/DAC is turned off in the Model 30 integrated (called “PassThru” mode in many integrated amps. Perhaps the Roon Mac is connected to this poor DAC in the Model 30?
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