So have I, but I don’t hear any difference. I wonder why?
I agree. But, there is definitely a perceived sound difference between OS in my several tests.
Perceived – for sure. But it could also be influenced by phases of the moon, wall paint color, or pink unicorns. But since it is completely subjective and personal, there’s not much point in arguing that jumping three times on the left foot greatly improves the sound for you.
If the question is whether there is any physical difference in the sound (as a purely acoustic phenomenon – sound waves emanating from speakers) then there is something that can be measured, evaluated, and argued about, although the OS of the server has no effect on it whatsoever…
I’m glad you are able to explain it.
Engineers are pretty good at explaining things they invented and have been building for quite a while.
Also remember to paint the outside of your USB cables with this special paint I can sell you …
So are you saying there are indeed positive effects in your final analysis? Or are you saying there may be improvements but there may be not? I ask because on one hand, you said you heard the improvements, but on the other hand you indicated that you were aware of expectation bias (which I think could invalidate your observation). Thanks!
I’m saying that I hear positive effects to these Roon optimizations, and I have heard it sufficiently consistently over a long period that I have convinced myself that these are real - even allowing for the very real risk of expectation bias in any sighted subjective comparison (sometimes the comparison was accidentally blind when I’ve forgotten whether the setting was on or off).
But I realize that this won’t cut it with the objective scientists in our midst. My response is that the music lover who has paid for a music app is under no obligation to understand what’s under the hood of that app. They have no responsibility to do DBTs or buy complex measuring equipment. We are music lovers who also enjoy the hifi journey. We are not running a formal clinical trial here - we are enjoying a fun hobby.
The app creators can take or leave our subjective comments and do some investigation. Sadly they always seem to leave it. Now, I could spend hours/days/weeks trying to get more objective evidence, but based on previous long winded debates, I fear this would be a waste of time, so I’m not going to bother - because this is a fun hobby, not a clinical trial.
I think on the contrary, it’s fortunate that app creators don’t go on a wild goose chase every time someone convinces themself they can hear differences where science tells there can’t be any. With every new release, regardless of the nature of changes, there’s a group of people who think sound improved, another who think it got worse, and a third one who think nothing changed. If you really believe there’s a difference, I think you do have to get a little closer to a clinical trial to convince anyone they should spend time investigating these claims. When you challenge science, you need to do it scientifically.
Definitely not. If you uncovered some objective evidence then you’d have everyone’s attention. Unfortunately the vast majority of claims made regarding SQ, cables, different versions of Roon, etc, in a whole bunch of different threads, are purely speculative, based on nothing more than subjective opinion. In short, in the absence of hard, objective evidence, subjective experiences that fly in the face of common sense, physics, received wisdom regarding how electronic devices and networks function (and so on) are likely to be largely disregarded by the more objective among us.
It’s definitely not an obligation of music lovers. It’s an obligation of those who post recommendations contrary to current science. Science has been wrong before, but it takes more science to correct it. Anecdotal evidence is just the catalyst for more science.
We’re starting to get back the the unwinnable, cyclic debate that’s been going on for decades, so unlikely to be concluded now. So I’ll end my last post with some facts:
- Many audiophiles are deserting Roon for alternative music apps because of SQ reasons, despite the alternative app having a poorer UI.
- One high end server manufacturer, who used to run exclusively Roon, is now developing their own app because they were fed up of their users complaining that random Roon updates sometimes impacted SQ for no good reason.
- Another high end server manufacturer, also exclusively Roon, will shortly provide options for alternative apps, but in this case I don’t know if that’s due to SQ or just to provide more choice, or probably both.
- Such users typically don’t bother posting on this forum anymore (because it doesn’t help), but that doesn’t mean they stop grumbling about it (and this forum) on other forums.
Now, you could debate that such users are fools/wrong/misguided/etc, but it doesn’t change the fact that that is what they are deciding to do. They are most certainly a small minority of Roon users, so the Roon team probably doesn’t care much if they lose a few users as long as the overall user base is growing.
IMO, the forum members who most vocally and consistently post the scientific/objective line are also in the minority. I suspect that the vast majority of Roon users don’t care much one way or the other, and all this is fine - we’re each free to follow our own paths.
I’m in the item 3 situation. I love the Roon UI, which is just as well as I currently have no choice. But when my server allows for alternatives, I will try them. I sincerely hope that Roon comes out well, because I still love its UI. My last post on this topic.
Well said. I’m listening to squeeze server and squeeze player at the moment because it sounds much better than roon. Roon has the best gui and search functionality hands down but they have lost their way with sound quality.
Two pieces of software cannot both be bit perfect and sound different. That is inherent and by definition.
That is not to say that people don’t hear differences. Some of those differences may actually be real - but in that case one piece of software cannot be bit perfect and must be doing something to pump the sound. And some folks enjoy certain distortions and other euphonic manipulations.
Can you support this?
Yes, I get it. I too get somewhat fed up with Roon’s practice of releasing buggy software and then fixing it with frequent follow-up releases. So this creates a lot of version churn that people then imagine has different sound qualities, even though the change had nothing to do with any aspect of Roon’s sound engine.
Try Audio Science Review and see what you think! On the flip side, Audiogon and AudiophileStyle are both so full of tweak believers they actually run people off their forum for trying to discuss the science side of things. There’s plenty of nastiness on both sides.
I think it’s unfortunate. I believe there’s a scientific/engineering explanation for everything, but that doesn’t mean that science/engineering has already explained everything.
If you are going to post just anecdotal “I heard an improvement” type of comment, though, you are simply not pushing the dialog forward and there’s no use to anyone else with that statement. It may not be voodoo, but then it’s incumbent on the person suggesting it to back it up with something more.
This anti-science backlash is somewhat mind boggling. People will trustingly fly in an airplane or let their bank maintain their balance on a server, because, science/engineering, but reject that same science in audio.
I think it’s a stochastic necessity that some will, and they will mention whatever reasons, imagined or not.
But there are others who don’t, and they will say the opposite.
So the whole statement in this form isn’t something that can be argued reasonably to begin with, in the same way as after every update some say it sounds worse, some say it sounds better, and most say no difference.
I’ll just leave it with this:
Personally I use Roon RAAT to my various systems, but have Roon running on a Windows PC located elsewhere in the house to minimise switch mode PSU’s etc. from the Hifi rack causing localised mains pollution. Sounds fine to me while I drink red wine
Best wishes
Steve Harris
Software Director
Naim Audio Ltd
(Originally posted on the Naim Audio forum and first quoted by me here: Is it me or does Roon degrade sound - #33 by Suedkiez)
I’ve only been a Roon user since August 23 and I think the SQ is excellent especially using headphones, the PEQ profiles I created for each headphone, crossfeed etc.
If the SQ has deteriorated how good was it
It’s worth remembering that we are dealing with the senses and IMO they change, what once sounded good might not the next day.
I can’t switch headphones like some people seem to be able to do, I need a period of quiet between headphones, I give it an hour, otherwise anything other than the first headphone sounds rubbish for the first 10 minutes or so.
I think this is why sometimes I prefer headphone B over headphone A when listening to the same music, I know one won’t sound as good.
But another time I choose headphone A.
This is really the can full of worms but if people say they hear an improvement I won’t argue.
A bit like people who tell me the same amount of coffee and water tastes better in a Moka pot Vs an aero press.
Sometimes I prefer the Moka and sometimes I don’t but it’s bit perfect coffee
(I know it isn’t I am making the point that our senses change with what it perceives as being better).
No science behind this other than 57 years of life.
So, that quote, that is just the Naim guy saying that switching PSUs may affect his other audio gear on the same power circuit?
OK, I’d hope that reasonably well designed gear would reject that, but hope is different from science and I certainly don’t know what his gear may be vulnerable to.
It’s mainly him saying that Roon sounds fine to him, and he can’t be accused of not being an audiophile or not having access to great gear. (So it’s not as if audiophiles are all rejecting Roon)
The other stuff, yes, I agree with you, but I guess it comes with the territory
Many audiophiles are also buying directional Ethernet cables and (also directional) “audiophile” fuses. You just can’t win with some people.
Anyone buying a “high-end server” for SQ reasons will complain regardless.
That’s absolutely their right. There’s nothing that can be done about it either. No matter what change, having zero real effect on SQ you make, some people will convince themselves that the sound changed, because their golden ears are telling them so.
And there is absolutely nothing that Roon can do about it. Software can’t fix what happens in the listener’s head.
Quote of the week right there…