Solve the library/non-library conundrum and all the complexities it creates for tagging, focus, playlists etc

Agree. Is this also why many/most Playlist tracks will not display a release date although in Album View a release date is shown above the album title in EVERY instance?

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Does anyone have a link to where this was stated, not doubting it, just wanted to see the context.

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Thanks for replying and for the clear communication. So does Roon have a clear vision now?

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Yes, we’ve had a decade to think of how we would do things differently if we were omniscient back then :stuck_out_tongue:

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Great! So, by 2030 everything though be good to go :stuck_out_tongue:

Happy Friday!

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@RobOK: You can find Brians earlier statement (Feb 17) that Roon is working on it here: How do people typically mark artists/albums for future exploration? - #22 by brian
“Yes, we’re aware of this need and have a plan for it. The divide in capabilities between “in your library” and “not in your library” is mostly artificial, and results from the history of this project more than conscious design choices.
There is a substantial re-engineering effort involved in addressing this, because a huge body of code sits on top of this structure, so it will take a while, but we are planning to do it at some point.”

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For my personal use case, liked/not liked in Roon vs. Qobuz isn’t that much of a problem. Actually, I like it the way it is.
What is actually really a problem for me (who is currently testing Roon and building up the library) is not being able to tag tracks from the queue, even if they are in the library already. (Playing from a playlist that was copied from a Qobuz playlist.)
And, even stranger: If I open the album from the queue, I can’t even tag from there. In fact, Roon doesn’t tell me that the album (or some tracks from the album) is part of my library. In order to be able to tag, I actually have to search for the track that is currently playing in my library. Sorry, but that’s ridiculous.
If there’s a quicker way to get to where I can tag, please tell me.

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Dear Zottel

Can you please ellaborate and document your issue somewhat clearer

Here is a picture of a queue, containing tracks from my Library.
If I click on the 3 dots at track level, I clearly have the possibility to add the track to a Tag.

I tested a Qobuz playlist as well, and I agree that the ‘Add to Tag’ is greyed out, even for tracks in your Library

But you stated:

I understand by this that you actually have produced your own (copy of) Playlist in Roon, and that you are playing that one

Dirk

I can’t:

But that depends on what I’m playing: If I play an album from my library, it works. If I play a playlist, it doesn’t work. (At least for a playlist that contains titles that are in the library as well as titles that aren’t.)

EDIT: And, as the screenshot shows, Roon already knows that the track is in my library, because I can’t add it. That button is not greyed out for titles that are not in the library. So why can’t I add it to a tag?

Yes, that’s what I did.

Here is an example of a Playlist I made myself (based on an Album Tag - Nederlandstalig).
Most albums are Qobuz albums added to my Library, only some are local.
In the Playlist I can add a track to a Tag

If I now click Play Now to start playing the Playlist, and then click on the Queue, I still can add a Tag to a track in the Queue.

Still wondering what we are doing different!?
Dirk

I did a few tests, and it seems it depends on where the title was added from:


Note the missing hearts on two of the tracks of my test playlist: Where there are hearts, I can add tags, where there are no hearts, I can’t.
Note especially the two identical tracks at the end: Both are the same track, one added from a Qobuz search in Roon, one added from within my library.
As the playlist I was talking about was copied from a Qobuz playlist, all tracks were added from Qobuz. Roon knows which tracks are in my library and which aren’t, as on those that are, the button to add them to the library is greyed out, even on tracks that were added from Qobuz. But still, I can’t add tags to those that were added from Qobuz.

Trying to explore with you.

First, I create the same playlist as you do, starting with the 1st 3 tracks, none of them in my library.

Than I add the KIDS album from Noga Erez to my Library.

And I add the same track Cipi to the playlist as track number 4

At this moment, in the playlist, I can add a tag to Track 4, not to track 1-3.


I.e. tracks in the playlist need to be in your library if you want to add a tag to them.
So far, everything as expected.

If I click Play Now for the playlist, and look at the queue, I can not add a tag to tracks 1-3, but I can add a tag to track 4

To me, everything still consistent.

Dirk

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@anon90297517 See this post below, and some of the other posts earlier in this thread, that describe it issue. It mostly manifests itself when playing Roon Radio or a Tidal/Qobuz sources playlist. Those situations are playing Non-Library references to the track, even if the track actually exists in your library so adding it to a playlist will add the non-library reference.

Conversely, a playlist can contain both library references and a non-library references to the exact same track at the same time. The Library reference will be Taggable and show play counts etc, the Non-Library reference will not.

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@anon90297517 & @zottel The thing, as I understand it, is as follows.
First you need to understand that the exact same tracks can exist in two versions in Roon: a library version and a non-library version.
Then you have to know: (1) when you make a local copy of a playlist, by default it are non-library versions of the tracks that you will find in your playlist. Even if the exact same track is also in your Roon library.
(2) The same is true if you are listening to a track (e.g. from Qobuz or Tidal) and you add it to a playlist, it is a non-library version that get’s added. Even if you first chose the option “Add to library”.
So, in all these cases you will find the library versions under My Library > tracks. There you can tag them, heart them, see the number of times they have been played etc.
If however you are playing a playlist or you are playing from Tidal/Qobuz, you will always be playing non-library versions, even if library versions exist. This implies that you will not be able to tag the track from the now playing screen or the history screen or the queue.
If you do want to tag them, like @zottel says, you first have to look up the library version under My Library > tracks and then you can tag from there.
Is this ridiculous? Yes, it is.
Is there a way around it? Yes, with much effort and time it is possible to replace the tracks in your playlists with library versions. And it is also possible to make sure that when you add a new track to a playlist, it is a library version that you add. This also involves extra (ridiculous) steps.

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More or less. However, I would expect to be able to tag a song that is currently playing if it is in the library regardless of whether it was in the library when the playlist was created. Also, even if a track is already in the library, but I don’t search it there, but search it in the Qobuz part of Roon and add it to the playlist from there, that means it won’t be taggable.

@brian I understand that getting rid of the artificial Library boundary would be quite an engineering effort. In the interim, I wonder if it would be easier to make the “Add To Library” operation an implicit, and behind the scenes action when any Tidal object is Added to a playlist, tagged etc.

This, along with a clean up of existing non-library references, would go a very long way towards improving the user interface quirks and difficulties highlighted in this thread. While the larger Library re-engineering effort can continue behind the scenes.

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To my way of thinking, I want “Add to Library” to be an explicit action on my part, I would not want it to become implicit.

I think of browsing the Tidal and Qobuz catalogues as browsing in the record store. I may even ask to hear an album or two to see whether I like it. And if I do, then Adding it to my library is like purchasing it, taking it home and adding it to my record collection.

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I am with Geoff on this. There are possible knock on issues with having an implicit add. For example, if you are just adding tracks to a playlist using your concept, you are adding just a track to the library, but, you are adding the album object to the album screen. So, you will get a ton of albums on the album screen that reference one track.

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Not sure if I’m overlooking something, but as Roon already knows if a track is in the library and greys the corresponding button, even without a large redesign I think it shouldn’t be too hard to make it work.
It might well make things ugly internally, though, and being a software engineer myself, I could understand a decision not to do such a thing if the great redesign is already on its way.