Ah, the old audiophile “your science doesn’t apply in my reality” argument. The science of data transmission is fully understood. How do you think streamed music gets to your house from Tidal/Qobuz for instance? Over up to thousands of kilometres of fibre optic.
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I was NOT trying to teach you! It was related to a previous post and JUST a comparison.
I bit disappointing.
Torben
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Peter, as a manufacturer representative, are you saying that you actually believe there are real differences between different optical fibres which are somehow able to affect the analogue audio stage?
I’m all for subjective impressions of things which have a shred of plausibility, but encouraging people to tinker in things neither you nor they understand and to listen out for the impossible is a little disingenuous don’t you think?
The Community is an open forum. Anyone is free to comment on any discussion, provided it stays on topic.
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Apologies Torben, that wasn’t clear when I read your comment
If you’re interested in better understanding optical losses, then this makes an interesting read:
It’s a shame Graeme that you like to preach but you don’t take kindly to those that have a different perspective. When we think we know all there is to know about any topic then that’s when we lose the capacity to learn anew or have a meaningful debate. You’re right and everyone else is wrong. I’m retired now but spent all my working life in electrical engineering. I have a son who’s a pHd scientist in micro-biology. We catch up twice a week and have many wonderful discussions on science and technology and how our understanding of what we thought we knew is constantly changing. Once you close your mind to possibilities of phenomena we don’t completely understand then it becomes a very small world. I don’t doubt your expertise in your field but I do find your tendency to belittle and deride those that don’t share your expertise and perspective tiresome. I know you subscribe to other forums where you seem well regarded and respected (ie photography) because it’s a shared experience with other subscribers and you are on an equal footing but when it comes to the topic of networking you somehow take exception to the personal listening experience of others which technically valid or not, are entitled to the same respect shown to you in other parts of the Roon forum.
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It’s not my intention to belittle or deride or to be disrespectful in any way.
I keep an open mind in respect of many areas of science and I agree, there are many areas where scientific understanding is growing - microbiology being one of them.
Fibre optic networking is a very well understood science and little has changed in it over a number of years.
That’s not to say that there have been no advances - Rayleigh backscatter in an optical fibre has been shown to be modulated by a fibre’s physical environment. Using advanced sonar techniques, this is now being harnessed into military and security applications, especially with regard to surveillance of critical infrastructure that could be susceptible to sabotage or terrorist activity.
Blind for my wife… when you start in psychology research, omr of the nice stories they tell you about this topic is “Kluger Hans” kluger hans effect - Google Zoeken
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I doubt anyone, Graeme included, denies that you perceive whatever sound differences you may subconsciously desire. People “hear” differences between fuses too. Perception is a very weird and funny thing.
It’s when claims are made about objective sound difference that others are supposed to hear (of course if their system is “resolving enough” and their ears are golden enough…) that a line should be drawn. Sure, we don’t know everything there is to know about the world, but we don’t turn to seriously discussing Flat Earth or Creationism as valid alternative points of view. What happens to packet data transmitted over network cables (be they copper, some kind of fiber, or whatever those “audiophile” network cables are made from) is well enough understood.
Now that we’ve established that everybody is delusional, all optical cables sound the same, and nobody can make a single sighted observation without being hopelessly crippled by bias… CAN WE GET BACK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD TOPIC?
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No one is saying anyone is delusional. On the contrary, I believe that those in this thread claiming to hear differences, are, in fact, hearing those differences - as real as feeling the heat of the sun on your skin under a cloudless sky. However, the reasons for “hearing” the differences is what’s being debated here. It’s not due to any change in the audio signal. People claim noise over copper ethernet affects sound. There’s a degree of palausibility to that hypothesis, however, my own experiments (and those of others) would conclude that the effects of such noise are wildly exaggerated.
With fibre, it’s a whole different ball game. There’s no electrical noise carried over fibre. The bits arrive as transmitted, otherwise TCP/IP data integrity verification fails. Data is retransmitted if there’s time (and where audio is concerned, there’s plenty of that) or packets are dropped, which results in gaps in playback. Where fibre optic is concerned, bits truly are bits. If they weren’t, your internet wouldn’t work, you online shopping and banking transactions would fail. Streamed audio isn’t special. Until it reaches the analogue stage of your DAC, it is just pure data. Nothing more, nothing less.
Rather than sarcasm, how about you put forward a hypothesis as to why you think there could be an audible difference between different types of optical fibre?
If someone can put forward a rational, science based argument, I’m more than willing to take it seriously and have a sensible debate around it.
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It takes a degree of hubris to, by default, state that the observations of others are inherently flawed… unless they prove to you otherwise.
I’m not concerned if you take the observations of others seriously. You have already made it very clear that you do not.
Nobody here is interested in your scientism-based debate. Please start your own thread.
Prior to your thread de-rail, DATA SHARING was occurring. I would like to see that resume.
EDIT: Delusion Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
delusion [noun]
- a. something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated
Choose your synonym. The act of being deluded is literally what you have described.
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I own a Linn next generation DSM/3 streamer and have found myself prefer the single mode cable.
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Actually, it does not take any hubris – psychology is also a science, and many an experiment had proven that “lies like an eyewitness” isn’t a saying for no reason.
It is funny that with your disdain for “scientism” (well, anti-intellectualism is quite popular now, but still…) you claim that there was some “data sharing” going on here. Data is what science deals with. Implausible anecdotes belong in the gossip pages, somewhere with Kardashians’ latest adventures.
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Lacking self awareness, are we? 
Now all of these implausible anecdotes are also “lying” ‘like an eyewitness’?
How many other people have to be delusional in order for you to be correct? Honest question.
You… haven’t actually read anything either @Graeme_Finlayson or me wrote, did you?
As popular as it is to trust the feelings, believe in lived experiences, or whatever, no matter how many people might repeat something that completely contradicts the science that did give us fiber-optic networking, digital music, and Roon, but is very well described by psychology of perception, and how easy it is to (self)manipulate it… Nope, plural of anecdote is not anecdata. Mass delusions would not be anything new either.
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I guess only people who think that what’s flowing through a LAN can be called audio.
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There have been 6 flagged posts in this thread in the last 24 hours.
Obviously things are getting a little strained so let’s all please show some restraint here.
Let’s help that along.
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Evidently, our plea for restraint was ignored. Therefore, I am closing this thread out since the OP hasn’t replied for 20 days, and the discussion has deviated from its original purpose.
If anyone is concerned about a post, please flag it, and the moderators will take a look.
Moreover, please do not attempt to moderate or silence other users you disagree with by replying; simply flag the post as off-topic, inappropriate, etc., and let the moderators intervene. Likewise, do not flag a post if you simply disagree with it.
For reference, here are the community guidelines.
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