Streaming Bashing

Yes, it is called a degree in electroacoustic engineering.

I was rather referring to hobbyists who can afford an AP or Klippel and publish their measurements without understanding how they translate to audibility, hence self-declared.

Obviously, people making a living out of reviewing hi-fi gear on Youtube, were not meant when I talked about ´mainly a hobby´ and ´most people do it for fun´, but rather the addressees of such videos who either believe the stuff or do not.

I agree that people expressing such opinion professionally should ideally be following journalistic standards of verifying their claims previous to publishing them. In the real world, the number of publishers meeting such standards is rather low. And for common viewers, it is very difficult to differentiate what is reasonable or not, partly because the opposite fraction of self-declared objectivists acts as illogical, dogmatic and contradictory at the same time. Publishing jitter measurements claiming there is an audible difference between streaming bridge and CD transport does sound as credible as publishing SINAD measurements far from audibility thresholds claiming to express a difference in sound quality between DACs.

´take my money from me´ would implicate that you are prone to taken an informed decision of buying stuff which from rational point of view would be useless or not making a difference in quality, would it not? I mean, for each and every of these questions, an answer and explanation from objective point is just one google search away, and a lot has been written about blind testing, audibility threshold and how digital audio works. It is difficult not to stumble on the objective point when reading or listening about that. In case of CD transport vs. streaming bridge, not even much of technical understanding is needed to know that bits are bits, just some common sense.

That said, my conclusion would be that people who buy expensive stuff which others regard to be useless, do this in full awareness of its status. This has not always been the case. Before internet appeared, some magazines, dealers and distributors had some kind of monopol on forming the ´public´ opinion, with almost no-one being able to find contrary opinion or solid information. In this situation, like 25 years ago, I would understand your fury and the will to save people from their own delusions.

The problem here is that sound quality is subjective and people do not ask for their opinion to be fact-checked. Not much difference to the opposite fraction, I would say, which makes any common understanding increasingly unlikely. I would be satisfied if a situation could be achieved in which the extreme fractions are not disparaging each other anymore, which in my understanding is ironically damaging the reputation of the common passion of enjoying music as well.

As a card-carrying audiophile, I disagree with that. Most of my friends are into great hi-fi reproduction and most of them stream music at least part of the time. It’s not audiophiles but stick-in-the-mud audiophiles (the same kind that insist vinyl sounds better than anything else) perpetuating this cliche. I would add, however, that while on a month-by-month basis it’s cheaper to listen to streamed music via Roon/hi-res streaming service of your choice, it’s the gear you listen to it on that makes a huge difference. The expensive streamer/server that I’m currently listening to (which I can’t afford) sounds leagues better than my relatively inexpensive PC server/streamer. So to get a really great sound I think a fairly chunky sun of money still needs to be spent!

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Just catching up on this thread whilst sitting in my works van, listening to music via Arc/CarPlay. My coffee is still too hot and it’s looking rather damp outside.

I listen to music because I love music.

Nothing wrong with folks seeking audio nirvana from equipment or music source. Each to their own.

But I wonder how much of the nirvana seeking gets in the way of actually just enjoying the music, engaging with others about music choice.

I subscribe to Qobuz and a family account with Spotify. On occasion for ease I just use Spotify, like when my daughters want to have a nighttime disco before bed. I get the disco light out, pop some music on and I enjoy the experience. I share the experience.

Sometimes I pop a record on and listen with my eldest daughter. She’s not fully into my tastes but we share turns in what to play. She loves Taylor Swift and Sabrina Carpenter at the moment. Seeing her enjoy music means a lot to me. She prefers the sound from our Sonos Fives in a stereo pair.

These experiences matter more to me than the equipment that I use or how I could better the SQ. maybe I’m not a true audiophile :scream:

I’ve moved one of our HomePods to my daughter’s room and knowing she’s listening to music and loving it matters more to me.

Bashing the source of music seems senseless. As long as the source is legal, who cares. Why care?

I buy CDs, Vinyl and digital downloads (red-book to DSD512). Some of my old CD rips from 20+ years ago are mp3 @ 192kbps. I don’t focus on that.

My coffee has cooled enough now, happy listening folks :grin:

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$$$$$$bits sound better than $bits which follows the rule that $$$$cable sounds better than $cable, which is itself a corollary to $$$$$equipment sounds better than $equipment.

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I just like to cut a rug!

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I’ll take that as a joke. Being an ‘objectivist’ simply means believing in science. One probably needs only complete middle school for that. Otherwise, it would take degrees in celestial mechanics, calculus, propulsion systems etc. to believe in Moon landing; in quantum physics, standard model etc. to believe in elementary particles; in astrophysics, optics, signal processing etc. to believe the first picture of a black hole is genuine; and so on.

Has anyone ever? (There are probably precious few exceptions.) This kind of argument is completely irrelevant. It’s not ok to let conspiracy theories run rampant just to avoid inconveniencing ignorance or deception. Besides, it’s a public forum, nobody needs special invitation, or degrees.

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Memories = priceless :+1:

In which case all of these discussions have as much value as arguing whether strawberry ice-cream is better than vanilla.

If we are trying to discuss actual facts though, it’s a different matter.

To be honest, those looked much more like some strawmen you had constructed.

Well, I guess you could tell them that painting their Nucleuses pink, with bright-orange polka dots would bring better sound, too. This would be entertasining, if anything, but is it the right thing to do?

Well, again, there is a difference. Measurements reflect the physical reality. If you get the same signal at the speaker terminals, the sound is the same, regardless of whether the bits had psassed through audiohile Cat 7 :rofl: cables and power had passed through a directional audiophile fuse or not. Perception is something completely different… Nevertheless, people who perceive that Napoleon talks to them and tells them to do things, no matter how sincere they are in their belief, are hauled off to asylums.

I wonder who are you referring to here, because that’s absolutely not what a certain site that is sure to cause a lot of tooth-gnashing here does…

Preferences are subjective. Presence or absence of difference is not.

When I got this in 1976 I thought I had the “perfect” set up!

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Ah, I see there is now a 4 hour response delay. When you’re a hammer, everything looks like nail.

What this dialog seems not to address is the practical difficulty of actually comparing a CD to a streaming track:

—first one has to be sure that the CD is the same exact release as that served by the streaming service. A different master, even a slightly different gain setting, will be enough to tilt a listening test.

–second, one should use the exact equipment topology and configuration to listen: that means, at the very least one should be using the same DAC input and output for both signals.

That may be difficult if one is using the USB input on their DAC for the streamer and a S/PDIF input for the CD player or transport - I am not aware of a lot of transports that are USB hosts. And since different digital inputs on a DAC may perform differently (different gain perhaps even if bits are bits) then the signal should travel exactly the same path as from the digital output on the CD player and from the streamer (and it is often the case that S/PDIF outputs from computers are suboptimal…so using a computer for both isn’t anywhere near a quality test environment - for one thing, you have to know how to avoid the OS mixer!). That is not easy to set up, and an A/B test with digital cable swapping means delay, that is also a challenge in terms of sound comparison.

And if you are just listening to the CD player analog output, you’ve already screwed up any semblance of a scientific test.

By the way, someone above commented that they had done a test by uploading a music file to a newsgroup and then downloading it and comparing the original with the download. This is not testing streaming quality. This only tests file integrity. They didn’t need to listen - a checksum or other file comparison would have been sufficient to establish that the file was reassembled properly through the mime-encoding etc.

With respect, and I do not mean to be harsh, but this helps illustrate how people try to apply analog logic to digital sound reproduction which is one of the main reasons audiophiles are vulnerable to digital snake oil.

Finally, my opinion on the debate about preference/subjectivity/“it’s a hobby let me be happy” versus the scientific approach. Fine if you want to post that “I just bought this digital doodad and I am really happy with the purchase!” but please do not imply that the digital doodad has any science behind it or that it actually represents an improvement. There are lots of newbs out there that read this stuff and then believe they have to have the digital doodad to optimize sound.

Unless that improvement has been scientifically established, the onus is on the non-scientific poster to provide proper evidence, not opinion, not sighted listening tests, not marketing speak from manufacturers, that the doodad makes a real difference. That will be hard if not impossible to do because those with engineering knowledge understand how effectively impossible that conclusion really is.

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You can make 100% sure you’re listening to the same bits (e.g. by capturing the bits during streaming and burning them to a CD). You can also use a streamer with S/PDIF output (or build one using a Pi and a HAT), so that you can use the same DAC input. However, the most difficult part is making the test blind; without that, you’re not doing it right.

(But then again, it’s just a waste of time anyway. It’d be more fun dropping cannon balls from the leaning tower of Pisa to see which one hits the ground first.)

It is an attitude I support, but in case of audio and sound quality not an easy one. You need basic technical understanding to apply scientific knowledge, you need essential practical experience to understand the outcome and most of relevant questions have never been subject to reliable scientific research. And on top you have a wild situation with who says what and people naming their methods and websites ´science´ which are among the most dogmatic and unscientific.

The irony of this particular case regarding identical bitstreams from CD or streaming, is that it is probably the easiest one to understand and accept a proof that bits are bits.

That’s how the type of audiophiles we are discussing here is seeing things, yes. Trying to discuss facts with them, even if you and me agree on them and the underlying proof, is senseless.

I was more referring to understanding their deeper needs and leading them to a positive outcome. I mean, why do people believe such stuff? My guess would be they are striving for superiority when it comes to their system, for individuality and they want some boys´ toys to play around with (Apologies to all audiophiles I am not doing justice with this blunt estimation!).

So my approach would be to bring them actual knowledge and listening enjoyment alike. Teach them how to position loudspeakers, apply room treatment and optimize EQ without measurements. If they want toys, try REW and some mics. If they want fun, try to make them understand why a subwoofer might be a good idea. Or teach them basics of room acoustics.

In my understanding, this is far more likely to make people reflect their ´digital delusions´ maybe coming to some understanding that a CD transport is not as relevant, than naming them conspiracy theorists.

As mentioned, the initial topic is a rare case in which absence of differences can be proven and the proof accepted by people with basic knowledge. Other cases are far more complicated.

You are 100% correct. I did the testing I outlined above, as I stated, over 15 years ago when file based audio playback was still rather new, and the audiophiles all had their panties in bunch over FLAC versus WAV and things like file integrity and the “sound” of different storage mediums (such as gold versus silver CDs). I also agree that it is not the perfect test for comparing the sound of streaming versus disk based playback. I occasionally see posts from individuals new to streaming that mention some of these now thoroughly debunked misconceptions (a nice way of saying “myths”). Let’s call them zombie myths since they refuse to stay dead.

One thing that hasn’t been discussed thus far is if there is a difference between the sound of streaming versus disk based playback is does that difference lead to better or worse sound or just slightly different sound?


Moderator edit: Off topic comments split out … please continue the discussion in the new topic …

I like to think I have a highly resolving system (as in, I over spent on HiFi).
Years back (before roon) I compared CD + NAS + Streamer together with my son changing the inputs (yes each was level matched) The CD player was a Tag Mclaren DVD32R as a transport. I could not tell the different between the streamer and CD played…. And sold the DVD32R. The Streamer sounded better than the NAS, but even that was marginal-ish. You do not need to spend a huge amount on CD players as a transport.
So, set my sights on Streamers… I know that streamers make a difference with/inc. a good DDC section. They are not night & day either.
For me streaming all the way …

They don’t.

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That is a very known problem but finally there is a cure for it. Ifi will be coming very soon with a very good working solution. Here is a word from one of their developers.

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Well at least AI understands the needs of audiophiles!

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Perceive, not hear. Can’t hear what’s not there.

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they do … I have also built 4 at different price points. What I will say is you do not need to spend a huge sum to get great performance. RPi3 into a DAC vs $3,500 streamer into a DAC are not the same in EQ for example.

They are, if the DAC is the same.

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