Thank you for the new Target Volume Level feature in Version 1.3 (Build 274)

Roon Software Discussion
21

Correct. If you are opposed to DSP in your signal, then this is not for you. “Bit perfect” is a whole other conversation. I abandoned the whole notion years ago.

It’s certainly possible to output a “perfect”, “lossless” data stream from the computer, but when it gets to the DAC, all kinds of DSP is taking place. Nearly all DACs convert all input to high rate SDM (DSD) internally for better filtering. It’s a lot like an HDTV. It has a set internal resolution (1080p, 4K) and all inputs get converted to that resolution.

So the question is not a matter of whether there is any DSP or not, but where and how well the DSP is done. I have Roon volume level and I have HQPlayer upsample everything to DSD256 which bypasses such conversions in my DAC.

The term “bit perfect” implies that the data is not being manipulated, when in fact it is - outside of the computer. Pure digital is a myth.

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A similar point is that the opposite of “lossless” is not always “lossy”. Roon accurately says that the signal path has been “Enhanced”. The fact that the input has been changed doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s been harmed, as in this case.

The idea of a “perfect” signal is very attractive, but the reality is more complicated.

23

How does this interplay with the headroom adjustment in the DSP section if using EQ? Is that still needed if the volume level feature is used?

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I don’t use EQ. I have headroom adjustment turned off, but the clipping indicator turned on so I know if there are any headroom issues. I’ve never had any.

Volume leveling generally reduces the output level whille maintaining the quality of the signal. So that should actually lessen concerns about headroom.

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@Mediahound it’s a great solution when you have a playlist where it can be a difference on 5-10dB, between the songs!
For example I have a playlist made of TIDAL, Grammy - Best Engineered Albums.
So if I should listen to it without the New Target Volyme Level, so does I have to change the Volume constantly when I’m listening on it and have the shuffle play on! I didn’t listen to it with the “Old Volume Leveling”, because it compressed the song to much! But with the new one, so does I put it on -23LUFS and -13dB all as this article says!

(Because if you are setting it on -23LUFS that’s default, but when -3,4,5 so does it not sound good! But higher value like -13dB is opening up the sound, so instead of working as a compressor does it works like a limiter and that is a huge difference between a compressor and limiter! So my purple light is on)!

Bye the way so is it possible to choose using it and not using it!
So no one is forcing you to use it, Roon haven’t putting down work on the new Target Volume Level for fun! It’s because Roon users have asked for it, because it’s a huge difference between the new and the older version!
So because it’s free to choose using it :blush:, it would be a great difference if Roon have put so it would be ON all the time and you couldn’t choose!
When I could understand “your different writing against it, but now I don’t get it”!!!

Read this article who’s scientific proven and not being wrote, from assuming!
http://music-loudness.com/Music-Loudness-Alliance-White-Paper-v1.pdf

I wish you a great weekend.

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Hi @Mediahound
Here’s a link to the playlist from TIDAL I mentioned in my last comment.
Listen to it so do you understand what I mean!

https://tidal.com/playlist/07688f4e-1252-413c-b22a-3b030a469c85

27

I agree that the Target Volume Level feature is a good addition - although personally I’d like the range of adjustment to be even greater, so that the volume is much the same when this feature is on or off for an average level album.

However, I also agree with Rik_Carter that sound quality takes a dive with Volume Leveling switched on - sufficiently so that I don’t use this feature even though I’d like to. I don’t understand why this should be considering that I’m happy with the SQ of the Parametric EQ function, which I’d expect to be more complex DSP than volume control.

I’ve only very briefly tried Volume Leveling with build 274, and it seemed to suffer the same SQ issue as before, but I’ll try it again for a bit longer to see if there’s been any improvement in recent times.

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Given that perceived sound quality is so inextricably linked with changes in loudness, and we are talking fractions of a dB, it would be amazing if some psycho-acoustics were not at play in your determination.

Specifically, adjusting volume controls ‘by ear’ is nowhere near accurate enough to level match. Therefore, if you are manually adjusting volume up and down to compare this with the volume levelled alternative, I doubt this would be accurate enough.

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29

I’ve done another quick test, so the the following is not conclusive, but may point the way to further investigation:

I compared 3 settings: Leveling Off, Auto with -15 LUFS, Auto with -25 LUFS.
And with the latter two I adjusted my DAC’s volume by 10db, so that should be equal volume.

I felt there was a progressive loss of SQ with each step, with -25 LUFS being noticably duller, flatter, less dynamic than -15 LUFS. I also overcompensated the weaker setting by increasing the DAC’s volume more than necessary. The weaker setting went louder, but the SQ issue was very much still in place.

So based on this very quick and simple test, my guess is that the amount of volume reduction in the DSP function does matter. It would also explain why I’m happy with Roon’s EQ becuase I don’t go below -3db on that,

It’s only a guess. I leave it to the technical experts to give an explanation.

30

Hi again,
Haven’t any of you reading the link that I have shared twice time???
It’s a great and scientific providentially writing about Target Volume Level!!!
It’s describing how the best way to use the Target Volume Level, shall be setup to loose your Sound Quality as minimum as possible!!!

For example -3 or -4 compressing the sound incredible, but when I followed the description and change to -13 instead. So was the sound open up and didn’t sounding compressed at all!
So try and put the LUFS or Target Volume Level on -23 (default) it’s means Standard!!!
When put Volume Adjustment When Loudness Is Unknown, set the value on -3 or -4 and listening!!! So change the value to -13 and listening!!!
If you don’t hear that the music doesn’t sound as compressed instead more open, so does you have some kind of problem with your ears or something else!!!
It’s not as perfect as without the Volume Leveling, but it’s a huge difference from the “old version”!!!
And it’s because it’s not working like a compressor as before, it’s working as a limiter!!! If you don’t knowing the difference between a compressor and a limiter, please check it on google…

I’m a professional musician and studio producer, studio, mastering and live engineer since 1978 so it’s almost 40 years.
So I know that the difference is! But as some other have wrote about this subject, so does I wish that it was some kind of rule/standard volume when different Mastering Engineers, was making a master for the different kinds of products…Also that the engineer’s who’s making the glass master for making CDs of, and the same for the grawyering to pressing Vinyl records of (but it’s a little difference between CDs and Vinyl)!!!
For example did you know what everything from 200 HZ and down is mixed in mono? It’s because otherwise would the pickup jumping out from the track!!!
But I think that you agree with me on the point of some kind of standard dB, of course can it be between a minimum dB and maximum dB!
But it’s should just be a few dB’s difference!!! But today is some mastering engineer’s compress the CDs as hard as possible and other engineers will have more Air so they don’t compress it so hard! But it’s making the difference that we listeners have to struggle with!!! Of course does it depends on different music styles but it’s a different thing, because it’s wouldn’t work to compress classic music or jazz music…as pop or rock music! But it’s a different thing!

So please read this article about Volume Level (start on page 5)!

And use my playlists Of Grammy Awards Record For Best Engineer’d from TIDAL.
Because the dB is huge between the different records, so if you play that with shuffle! So does the Volume Level be used! And don’t forget to test to set it on -23LUFS and the Volume Adjustment When Loudness Is Unknown on -3 or -4 and listening when change to -13!
Even if you don’t like it and don’t going to use it, testing this and compare the difference between the two settings!

Here’s the article:
http://music-loudness.com/Music-Loudness-Alliance-White-Paper-v1.pdf

Here’s the playlist:

31

Hi Anders, I’m not sure if you’re refering to my posts, but if you are then I’ve tried reading both your post and the white paper twice and I still can’t see how these points about loudness etc explain my points about fundamental sound quality.

I already have a general understanding of compression, limiting, loudness wars, peak levels etc (not to the level of the white paper), And I’ve already stated that I like the idea of both Volume Levelling and the new Targert Volume features, so I have no problem with the concept. It’s just the SQ degradation I don’t like. I hear the same SQ degradation irrespective of whether one setting is louder, the same, or quieter than the other setting. It’s really very, very obvious to me, so I’m puzzled why more people haven’t noticed it.

The “Volume Adjustment When Loudness Is Unknown” does not apply to me (and I’ve tried your exact recommended settings) because all my music files are local and have been analized by Roon.

32

Hey Anders, thanks for the link, I’ve also read the article and am trying volume levelling again because of this thread. In fact it’s the reason I no longer postponed upgrading to the latest version of Roon!

One tip: I think you mean well, but I find all your triple question and exclamation marks a bit pushy and aggressive. Probably enthusiasm, but it makes your post hard to read, plus I think you’re more persuasive without it. The same goes for posting an identical link three times in one thread :wink: You appear upset nobody listens to you, but if you look closely at your first link, you can see that no less than 32 people already followed your link :smile:

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I applied a similar description to myself when I became a life subscriber…

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34

You owe me a new keyboard.

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Hi @Richard_B and @koen
No I’m not angry or anything else :smile:.
It’s just that I have been testing the new Target Volume Level, for 2 or 3 day’s now and sure it’s taking (this is that I have come up to) a little bit of the SQ!
But it’s not so big difference as many have been wrote!
So it’s something that I will use on the playlists that I have shared, but it’s the only one I need to do it on!
All my other playlists don’t have so much difference between the albums in dB, but it’s nice to listen to it sometimes :+1:.
Otherwise will I don’t use it because I don’t have to!
Perhaps will Roon improve it, but it’s not especially big chance that it’s not will have any impact on the SQ!

So apologize for sharing the pdf file about the subject, so many times :pray:.
I wish all Roon Community fellows a great weekend and great SQ, without the Target Volume Level :blush:.

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No worries Anders, already assumed it was enthusiasm😄 I’m leaving mine on to experiment, because like @k6davis I have many different versions of albums, eager to play with this a bit. Enjoy the music and your weekend!

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I experience no sound degradation with volume leveling whatsoever. As much as I enjoy the feature, I wouldn’t trade an ounce (iota? bit? :grinning:) of sound quality for it.

As @anon55914447 said above, direct comparisons of leveling on & leveling off are are extremely difficult because volume strongly impacts perceived sound quality. Tuning it on and leaving it on, I hear all of the life, dynamics and vibrancy the recording contains.

@koen, I look forward to your impressions of comparing different masters of the same music in this new way. Enjoy!

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Salient video on the topic here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hni1ToR308o

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Thanks @k6davis, will do! I’ve always found it hard to compare, exactly because of what has been said above: cranked up volume (loudness war!) is difficult to accurately bypass on my gear. I’ve used volume levelling in Roon before, but the decrease in volume was so dramatic that I quickly disabled it again. Terrific to see the Roon team continuously improve their software! :blush:

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My final comparison on this topic:

I fully agree with the comments that exact volume levels are important in order not to skew any A/B comparison. So I put my soundmeter to my headphones and adjusted the DAC’s volume control so that both A and B were (almost) exactly the same volume at the headphones. Where A was Volume Levelling OFF and B was Track Levelling set to -23 (default).

This was listening at my normal levels to a redbook FLAC file that Roon had previously analyzed :slightly_smiling_face: as 11.6 db track gain and 5.2 LU dynamic range. I had to take a number of readings because each time they were fractionally different (because of background noise or whatever). For this track, I ended up with B requiring an extra 12db on my DAC’s volume control. As I can’t adjust the volume in increments any smaller tha 1db, I ended up with setting B to be very slightly louder at about 0.3 db at the headphones, which should give it a very slight advantage in the A/B comparison. (Note, this 12 db difference will have to be “re-calibrated” for each track as the volume levelling will be different each time).

In that comparison, B was still duller etc than A as before. Whether this bothers anyone, or even if they notice it at all, depends on many variables: The resolution of the hifi system, the preferences and priorities of the listener; the way the listener conducts their comparisons, etc. So no surprise that there will be varying levels of reaction/indifference to this. In my case, I always start by just enjoying the music. I only start “testing” if something jumps out at me. The EQ function didn’t jump out at me, so I’ve never bothered to do detailed comparisons - if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. But Volume Levelling immediately sounded broke.

However, as Roon is a premium product, all I ask is if the Roon team can revisit this themselves and hopefully make this product even more wonderful than it already is. If they give it a fair try, and still find nothing wrong, then I’m not going to push it any further.

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