The Future of Roon

  • Dynamic range of vinyl: 50-70dB, to be generous
  • Dynamic range of CD: 96dB, to be conservative (in the absence of noise shaping)

I am talking about controlled double-blind, level-matched ABX tests. I can’t imagine why scientists would play tricks on themselves. If those tests are flawed, then your A/B tests are even more so. You’re not even using the same master.

Not sure why this fixation on entropy, or what form of information you are referring to.

No idea what that means, but again, being an audiophile doesn’t mean believing vinyl is better than digital. That’s just vinlylophilia.

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It is what this thread has been about. And you’re doing an excellent job of illustrating why no young people like this hobby. One use of the word vinyl and you’re off to the races, going back and forth about a tangential point in the most pedantic manner possible. Who would want to be a part of that?

True. You obviously don’t have any idea of what I’m talking about. Refutation is just a reflex. A way of filling your life.

But, we agree on Ukraine, so there’s that

Maybe you could point at one well-designed test where a vinyl could be distinguished from even a digital recording of that vinyl being played? Surely if there were a single thing audibly superior about vinyl (size of album art does not count) somebody, somewhere, would have come up with such. Irrelevant appellations to Shannon does not really prove anything.

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Dude is already in with digital. Not sure what any of this has to do with Roon’s future? I think if someone has spent serious dollars on the format, they would want to believe at least they’re getting something significant for it.

My question is do vinyl lovers like streaming, and whether Roon’s meta data helps with this discovery? I guess discovery skews newer, digital releases but would like to know if I’m wrong?

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I play 80% digital and probably 20% Vinyl and CD/SACD.
All are enjoyable and I really enjoy the vinyl experience, and having started out with a super cheap set-up, I have slowly moved to multiple setup’s with decent gear and it can sound truly wonderful.
Digital can sound wonderful at a fraction of the cost than vinyl. But vinyl is an enjoyable experience and the experience is part of the fun, at least for me. Cleaning, selection and playback are part of the enjoyment.

Roon’s Metadata handling is great, and having moved partly to LMS over the last several months the big difference is the metadata handling. I have spent a couple of months with MusicBrainz Picard bringing the metadata up to date, whereas Roon was always there.

I also removed TIDAL and Qobuz from my Roon experience to enjoy my library and now I have those set-up in LMS. It has meant me sampling and buying albums more quickly to get them into Roon. I am a strange one and have never denied it :flushed:

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It’s always fun to add a new album: not only to Roon, but to the Sony app that assigns the track/s a mood. I wish I could do it more often, but perhaps I’m more risk averse.

The Allmusic reviews help there: these are included on the Roon app.

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If I preferred vinyl and money were no object, I’d still use streaming, for music discovery if nothing else.
Then there’s away from home listening and the fact that not everything is available to buy on vinyl.

Roon wouldn’t necessarily feature in this because I think arc is too unreliable in my experience and it’s an area that needs work before I risk relying on it as my sole source of music on a 2 week holiday.
Roon needs too much tinkering, for some that means server restarts, that puts people off, it needs to be improved and convenient to use, right now it isn’t for some.

Ps my Plex and LMS databases on the same NUC, of the exact same audio files are 100% reliable and update easily with no tinkering.
Roon needs to improve if it has a future.

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How does Plexamp accept playlists? I haven’t been happy with their radio/s (they’re not bad, mind, and they work on the road) and if I’d be able to conveniently do my own it would be 100%-better than ARC, which never has worked.

Right now, iBroadcast is my favorite, and that was recommended from this very forum. See, our musings actually are appreciated!

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Amen brother @Grasshopper
I also have both installed on my NUC and both PlexAmp and Symfonium app on Android are both 100% reliable when out and about.
I have hoped for a reliable ARC since the beta was available.
One day, one day, maybe

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I have uploaded my library to iBroadcast since you recommended it, and I expect I will be paying for this as another option soon.

I don’t do playlists, as an album only listener, but again we are all different and have different needs

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Faster internet helps there, and patience. The fade option (which Plexamp has) is awesome: makes even a dull playlist sound like a studio creation.

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Plexamp has default playlists such as tracks you have :heart: which I tend to listen to in the car and you can create your own playlists, I tend to listen to albums only though if I’m out walking or in a hotel etc .
I looked at iBroadcast when it was mentioned before. I sub to Google One and so get 2tb of cloud, so my music library is backed up there, Symphonium can play from Google Drive so I have that option if my NUC failed.

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iBroadcast is unmetered, but 2tb would do me for the foreseeable future. It’s my fourth backup, but a serious contender for playback over cellular. $4-per month for bit-perfect, otherwise it’s low-quality mp3. But I believe the sub is kind of an opt-in: it could be a free option if playback quality wasn’t important.

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I’m sure it’s all over the place.

Back to the future of Roon, I’m not sure I understand their business model, and there are some external things happening that reduce differentiation.

When I bought my lifetime subscription years ago, I was pretty blown away. I could retire my Sony music server for playing high res files and 100s of ripped CDs, and consolidate all these into a beautiful user experience that no other music service had - remermber iTunes? - what was that Deezer thing about?, etc.

The Roon app didn’t handle Spotify like the Sony did, but Tidal had most of what I liked and in high res.

Too, as the manager of the .NET languages at Microsoft, I liked the fact that it was written using our tech.

When I became aware of Qobuz I noticed they had great metadata, downoadable PDFs of liner notes, etc. but soon after, Roon integrated with them. I’ve never been happier with any music setup in my life, so I bought a Roon Nucleus+ and a Denafrips DAC to play off that server.

Now all the Macs I’d been using could be shut off and I can pick up one of three tablets lying around the house, dial up some music and stream it in one of 9 Sonos zones in the house or on the dedicated system with the Denafrips.

Now in the last few years, I’m seeing Apple: 1) come out with a classical app, upgrade Airplay and Bluetooth and 2) Supporting lossless high res, which allowed me to move all of my FLAC files to AAC. As a result, I’ve done that, store them on my Roon and, with the matching feature of Apple Music,l have access to my 1,000s of CDs from my phone with lossless quality anywhere I go in the world, streaming without copying them before a trip. 3) I store the Apple folders on my Nucleus+ which sees them and displays them exactly as it did when they were FLAC files. 4) I mount the Nucleus as an SMB server on the Mac for file management. Works great.

I have never gotten Arc to work and feel it’s too risky to make the firewall changes that are suggested, and when I tried, it didn’t work anywhere. Given the way I set things up, the match service is better. I’m streaming from Apple’s servers with rigourous uptime quality, not a Linux box from my house. No effort, no firewall manipulatopm.

So I can stream directly from Apple. So that Roon benefit is eclipsed entirely.

The Apple Classical app has outstanding metadata, and applies them to my matched library. Its’ not Roon, so I never use it at home. But its very very good.

So that Roon benefit is diminishing.

So, if Apple is getting that smart about this market, supporting high res, doing their own speakers, replacing Sonos, etc. I wonder how much more niche that will make Roon.

For now Roon is far better, with much finer control over your audio. Apple can’t match that. I don’t know if they think it’s worth it or not.

The Roon guys seem incredibly smart and understand their product market fit, so I’m sure new things will continue to happen to keep them ahead.

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Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I’m glad you are enjoying your music in the format which is convenient. If I was perhaps a musician or had the means to attend regular recitals, I’d be passionate about Apple Classical too. iTunes Match (which is only for Windows AFAIK) is helpful for having a lossy cloud copy, but as far as metadata goes I wouldn’t know where to start? I’d imagine some of the musicians might lead their recordings into interesting interpretations, and fidelity from the recording may be notable. I’ve always thought I’d need another lifetime to be anything more than a casual fan, but you never know.

For me, for Roon to be a premium product, discovering and keeping the virtual liner notes stimulating across all genres are the edge. The Wikipedia-sourced bios for the rock bands are OK, and the reviews a little better, but maybe the rock music I’ve collected is itself a mediocre genre? “Genres For You” can be a little more to chew on. I’d think this is contingent on access to the streamers. If that won’t be a thing in the future, I don’t think audio zone management and the metadata compensate.

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Excellent series of post. I’m very grateful for such informative information. Much of it I confess was over my head but several post (as well as exchanges were helpful to some degree). I’m curious how are you listening to your music in your vehicle? I feel for so many users because I’m so attached to Roon ARC and I have no difficulties with access.

I do enjoy Apple Classical but frustrated that it’s not available via CarPlay. I will have to have a look at the “match” service you mentioned can you elaborate?

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I see…
https://support.apple.com/en-us/108935

If your opposed to Social Media it’s understandable. What’s your stance on sharing?

If you participated in the “What we are listening to [2024-11] thread then you have my thanks. It’s been fun and I wish Roon provided a means for users to share their recommendations. I had a blast listening to many community member selections although it became tiresome typing entries into the Roon search field. I wish there were a better way to accomplish this.

Here are a few illustrations void of albums already in my collection. If you have the time I highly recommend it. Sometimes you’re shocked at what you will find. One album by Chet Baker didn’t sound like Chet Baker at all to me. Sounded like someone was playing the opening theme for a Wink Martindale Productions throughout the album. Another album actually threw my equilibrium. That said I enjoyed many a selection and I discovered some fantastic gems with some help from friends.

Courage by Doug Pinnick @AceRimmer

Buena Vista Social Club Presents Manuel ‘Guajiro’ Mirabal by Manuel Mirabal @Craig_Davidson Craig

Frequency by Anthony Snape,Tommy Emmanuel @Matz

Coyote by Joni Mitchell @Enough “Bus stop, wet day” (so good to hear again!)

Hard Truths by Fulton Street @CrystalGipsy

The Last Days of Oakland by Fantastic Negrito @Matz

It’s a Man’s World by Sarah Vaughan @CoralRad

Sassy Swings Again @CoralRad

Essra Mohawk @Matz

Bruckner: Symphony No. 9 Ivan Fischer @Bauer

Thanks to @pig Paul for turning me on to “Fink”

Big ups to @anon15113244 for turning me on to “Heaven’s A Lonely Place by Koteri”

I believe it was @Bauer who recommended one of my new favorite albums and then for an unknown reason it appeared that he removed it. I’ve placed it back on the list. Thankfully I Roomed it prior to deletion and have been listening to it ever since.

Bartok: Concerto For Orchestra: Dance Suite per. Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Sir Georg Solti

  • Both he and @Matz had me wishing to see their collection.
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Which album are you referring to @Singleton ?