Why Roon is fabulous, with or without Tidal

That’s very kind of you to say so… I’ll keep it going as long as I can.

Here is something special from American Young, it’s an autobiographical song about her family life and one of the most powerful songs I have witnessed. She was right on top of me at times whilst filming.

Apologies, we are so off topic…

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Adam, excuse me if this sounds dumb, but this is in no way meant negative: why don’t you continue to play your vinyl EP’s from your turntable(s)? If there’s no streaming service integrating them correctly, then why should you? There’s some romance into playing them separately from the mainstream stuff the streaming services are offering. If I’m correct, there are tons of guys on this forum, taking this hybrid approach to playing music. :smiley:

Haha, always admiring your talent to catch a moment to plug one of your artists, Chris! Keep up the good work :+1:t2::smiley:

Edit: by the way, thanks for directing me towards Lindisfarne, never before heard of them! :slight_smile:

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For my part Roon offers great value for managing my own collection and extended eco-system of endpoints (mostly squeezebox family, a couple of Pi’s and one Devialet) No regrets at going lifetime for this alone.

As for streaming services I’ll likely add one eventually for discovery, but as stated by others I’m of the generation who has steadily built a decent collection, and enjoy the curation and ownership element, plus peace of mind that it won’t vanish at any point.

And Chris - it’s not 60, it’s 50 + VAT… keep up the great work putting on the shows - live music in intimate venues is what it’s all about!

In his one brief comment, PatMaddox has directly addressed one of the key assumptions, and issues, that is covered in this thread. It is therefore useful to elaborate on his point, and take it to its logical conclusion.

Responding to PatMaddox, I honestly don’t know where Roon gets its metadata, and was paraphrasing blunt assertions made by others in the forums. Namely, that Tidal would work with Roon to provide the necessary metadata, and other streaming services would not. After considering the comment of PatMaddox, I’ll now admit that I have no idea if those assertions are accurate.

PatMaddox may be closer to the truth. If Roon is simply borrowing the metadata and tagging info from allmusic.com or a similar service, and then applying it our personal libraries of FLAC files, then that also explains how they do it with Tidal. It seems logical that is the case, for it is doubtful that Roon is manually applying metadata and genre information to every artist, album and source. My guess is that PatMaddox is correct. Roon must be automatically incorporating the metadata from another source. That is clearly the case with the biographies and album information, as I assume that comes from Gracenote and similar sources. Roon is not writing all of that information on their own. Roon clearly pays for that service. And so did Tidal, which is why I presume they dropped it, and went to the gutter bottom basement of using TiVo for most of their information, yet another sign that Tidal is in trouble.

If Roon is paying for and utilizing metadata from another source, and applying that to our personal libraries and Tidal, then there is no reason it could not do exactly the same with another streaming service. And we aren’t talking about a huge amount of integration. Tidal albums are simply listed in a group below our personal libraries, following suggested main tracks. That would be easy for Roon to do with any streaming service.

And just as Roon now offers a separate tab or menu item for Tidal, it could do the same with a second streaming service. It would just be another menu item.

As for whether another streaming service allow their service to be carried by Roon, why would they not? From their perspective it is no different than allowing Sonos to carry their service – it simply expands their customer base, since we must pay for that service an addition to Roon. I’ve read comments that Apple Music would probably not allow this within Roon. But then why did they do so with Sonos? In both cases, Sonos currently and Roon in the future, it simply expands the base of potential subscribers.

The advantage for subscribers to Roon is one stop shopping – we would have two streaming services included within Roon, rather than having to check two different sources.

Apple and Tidal would be a powerful combination – Tidal offers lossless streaming, and Apple Music offers much stronger features for music discovery based on our own listening patterns. By including Apple Music, Roon would also instantly fix a significant weakness. That is the one function – music discovery – in which Roon completely fails, as has been covered in other comments earlier in this thread. The “focus on similar” button, which recommends DISsimilar sources a large part of the time, which is an oxymoron, and then ONLY within our own libraries – which is useless – underscores that point.

I previously modified my assertion that Roon is “fabulous” and corrected that to say “potentially fabulous,” in the event that Roon fixes the shortcoming related to discovery of music based on our own music preferences. This would instantly fix that.

In addition, while the future of Tidal and Spotify is uncertain, Apple Music will survive simply by virtue of being owned by Apple and iTunes.

And a single interface – Roon – could do it all. Of course, that assumes that Roon would incorporate all of the features of Apple Music, which they have not fully done in the case of Tidal.

For those who have posted here and now depend entirely on streaming services, then this would be a huge advantage for you. Not only would you benefit from two services within Roon rather than only one, you could also utilize the one streaming service that is guaranteed to financially survive in the future.

If Roon adopted this approach, it would automatically have another streaming service in place if Tidal should go out of business. The comments in this thread, and in the thread about Tidal, all share that one concern – that if Tidal goes out of business, Roon would be high and dry without a substitute to immediately offer. Offering both Tidal and Apple Music would solve that problem, while offering two services with different strengths that compliment each other.

In the scenario that Tidal goes under, we could then all utilize Apple Music within Roon, in the absence of Tidal. That would allow Roon the necessary time and breathing room to negotiate with Deezer to include that service as a replacement for lossless music.

Many of the comments in this and the other thread are driven by the fact that Roon is dependent on only one streaming service.

That is easy enough to solve.

Allan, I don’t think it is as straightforward as you suggest. The requirements that Roon has for the tight integration with a streaming service have been sketched out by Brian here:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/qobuz-news-and-correspondence/17536/8

Up until now, only TIDAL has stepped up to the plate. Undoubtedly there are business issues to be negotiated
with other streaming services, and these could also prove to be stumbling blocks, but if the technical infrastructure is also not present, and needs to be developed (probably by both parties), then this is also a hurdle that needs to be addressed.

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Who knows? The statement by Brian is very brief and explains almost nothing. Roon is nothing if not forthcoming with its users. To offer an even better example of the Roon Black Box, why don’t they explain why they have never fixed the pathetic “Focus on Similar” function? The failures of Roon in that regard have been well documented.

Brian may live to regret that very bold, and very unfortunate choice of words. Brian suggests that his users should leave Roon if they are dissatisfied. He is referencing dissatisfaction for a different reason, but it is all closely related. While it may have not been his intention, Brian paraphrased the very loud and clear message from a significant number of his subscribers.

Many of his subscribers will do precisely what Brian advocates

I started this thread to make the case for Roon, with or without Tidal. Because if a significant number of subscribers leave Roon in the event that Tidal closes, it might threaten the financial viability of Roon. I started this thread to try to persuade the those who both have a personal library and who stream that Roon offers other advantages, and not just streaming through Tidal, and that are enough reasons to stay and to support Roon.

But I’m not sure, after reading all of the comments in this thread, that my arguments are strong enough. Certainly not for those who respond with “hey, this is 2018, and it is pointless to spend money on CDs. I’m a streamer not a buyer of CDs.”

They have utterly no reason to stay with Roon if Tidal ceases to exist.

The fall back insurance policy for Roon is to offer another streaming service, preferably Apple Music. (Please see my previous post for why that would be fantastic and would bring new functionality that is not now available in Roon.)

Next question: will the integration be perfect?

Again, if Tidal goes under, it appears a significant number of people will dump Roon and vote with their dollars. It may be time for Roon to reconsider that hardline and inflexible position. The integration of Apple Music may not be perfect, but it would add the ability to discover music based on a user preferences – and that is now almost completely lacking in Roon.

Frankly – see my previous post – I don’t buy the above argument from Brian anyway. All that Roon does now is to show Tidal albums under the albums in our own libraries. And have a second menu or tab that that shows established features within Tidal.

Why is that so different from the “lame interface” that Brian references?

As for the biographies of artists, and information on albums, that I love, that just carries over from another database, probably GraceNote. And the genres and some or all of the metadata probably come from another database as well as PatMaddox is guessing. (We are all guessing when it comes to the enigma of Roon.)

If the enigmatic RBB (Roon Black Box) doesn’t want to respond or is stubborn and refuses to face these issues, well, many if its subscribers will dump Roon if and when Tidal ceases to exist. That is the clear message from many in this thread, and the Tidal thread. And all because Roon has only a single streaming service.

The solution – the addition of a second streaming service – may not be perfect, but it would offer new features within Roon, and enable all of us to access two streaming services rather than only one. And bring new features to Roon that are now almost completely lacking. And would mean that Roon has an insurance policy IN PLACE if Tidal ceases to exist. Right now, with only one streaming service, the message from many subscribers is that they will do precisely what Brian advocates.

The solution is straightforward and easy enough. Will Roon do it? Or, in the event that Tidal closes, will Roon lose so many subscribers that it will suffer from the same fate?

It’s time for the RBB to be more forthcoming with its subscribers, many of whom will, in fact, vote with their dollars.

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Sorry, I don’t buy it. The team at Roon Labs are more forthcoming than many companies. I’ve said several times in these forums that I appreciate the way in which Brian, Danny, and others participate in the forum and give reasons for roadmap decisions. And Brian is quite right, we can vote with our dollars. And I’m sure he is perfectly well aware that many subscribers see their primary value in the integration of Roon with a streaming service. At the end of the day, we are customers, we don’t get to make the business decisions of Roon Labs for them - that’s their responsibility, and so far they’ve been doing a pretty good job, IMO.

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I did a quick search under “Focus on Similar” before I posted. I might have missed it, given that the search function brings up many unrelated threads, but I couldn’t find a clear statement from Roon on why this has never been fixed. And that is on an issue that has been complained about many times, since Roon began. And even if they did respond on that point, they never fixed it, the button is utterly worthless, and other examples exist of a lack of or vague response by Roon.

And Brian’s brief and enigmatic statement that you quoted only made my point for me.

Geoff, you are absolutely correct on one point:

That’s right. And if Tidal goes under, and no other streaming services are available, then many of the customers will dump Roon in a flash.

That is the last outcome that I want. I love Roon and hope that it survives, and indeed thrives. Thus my original post making the case for Roon, and my additional point that Roon needs only add another streaming service to avoid that fate.

Just a comment on the “Focus on Similar” point. Indeed, it’s recognised that in many cases (not all), the “Focus on Similar” button returns too broad a selection, and it has been this way for a very long time.

There could be any number of reasons for this, ranging from “it’s low down on the priority list of things to do” to “it’s a hard nut to crack”.

Given that it probably draws upon Genre metadata, some insight into how complex the whole topic of genres is can be seen from this thread, which was in fact kicked off by Brian…

The fact that it recommends a large amount of DISsimilar music is only a small part of the problem. As others have noted in this thread, and in other threads, it only recommends albums in our own libraries, which is an oxymoron. We hardly need recommendations from our own libraries. Thus the advantage of adding Apple Music, as it is strong at recommending other music, not in our own libraries, and based on our own listening preferences.

I maintain 2 libraries for the time being , pending Tidal DLNA etc . I am not quite ready to turn off my old one

Big BUT the one thing that should not be overlooked is the automation involved in Roon And/Or Tidal

I remember the hours involved in grooming, tagging etc, . Given only a limited amount of time “allocated “ to OUR hobby depending on personal commitments , the hours not spent tagging thanks to Roon can be spent LISTENING

What is our hobby about music or sitting in front of a PC , I did enough of that at work

Off soap box back to Chopin :nerd_face:

Mike

I couldn’t disagree with you more, if there was a poll of people who would and would not leave Roon if Tidal failed I am certain that the leavers would be in (very small) minority.

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I hope you’re right. I love Roon and will stay with it. But adding a second streaming source will address the subscribers who you believe would be a small minority in the event that Tidal fails. And it would add to the functionality and usefulness of Roon in the case of Apple Music.

My own guess? If no streaming service existed in Roon, it would not be a very small minority. Not after everyone absorbs the change. Maybe a minority, but a very sizable minority. Losing that number of customers would impact Roon.

IMHO, the “Focus on Similar” (FoS) function is not broken. You just want it to function differently. As far as I’ve been able to tell in investigating that function, it returns other albums that have the same album genre tag(s) as the album which was focused on. The better (i.e. more focused) your genre tags are the better the returned selection(s) will be.

For example, as a quick test, I have the new YES Steve Wilson Remix download, it was unidentified and only had a genre tag of Rock. I edited it, removed that genre and added a custom genre of YESPROG. When focused, it returned no other albums. I then added YESPROG genre to The Carpenter’s Greatest Hits. I again FoS on the Yes Remix album now got both it and the Carpenter’s greatest Hits. Which makes sense since it is the only other album with the custom genre tag.

I think your problem really is what genres Roon applies to individual albums. In many cases they are too broad, “Pop/Rock” is, imho, a perfect example. Focusing on Van Halen II, will return hundreds of other albums including those by the GoGos and 50s jazz singer Helen Carr because both of them also have the “Pop/Rock” genre. My solution was to remove “Pop/Rock” from the Van Halen albums as I don’t consider them that genre. Although, there may be other who do.

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I’ll let others debate this point with you. I’d only note that having to fine tune that button to that extent – just to have it return recommendations in our own library – is more trouble than it is worth. The button should work, by focusing on a similar album, or not. The level of fine tuning that you outline only confirms how broken it is. In addition to the fact that it does not recommend music from Tidal or outside of our own library, which is the way such a function should work. It is pretty dumb to only recommend DISsimilar music from our own libraries, which is probably why they have never fixed it.

Hello, Apple Music for a music service that really works well in that regard.

Ok, here is my experience.

So I clicked as it’s is begging me to do…

What’s not to love.

And there is more…

Then I selected one track and I am offered 114 Versions…

Not sure where else I’d get this.

Chris, it works because Freddie King is quite specifically The Blues. Problems arise big time when you select something like, say Enya - Memory of Trees, which has many supplied genre matches from Alternative Pop thru New Age to Celtic, Instrumental and so on, so every man and his dog gets a look in. I’m guessing of course that the algorithms Roon uses for Focus on Similar are relating to genres of course, but if so it’s a fault of the automatic attribution of genres as much as anything.

I should do some tests with genre mapping and see if it helps.

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Don’t want to drag things too off far off topic, but since it’s been raised, focus on similar is definitely broken!
Roon supplies the metadata in a way users shouldn’t have to get into manual grooming - that’s a core selling point. If using this metadata causes ‘focus on similar’ to find dissimilar albums, then something needs to change Roons end.
Roons Genres are too broad to be useful in terms of finding similar things in the way it’s used now - especially since a lot of music has loads of genres thrown at it.

Obviously the term ‘similar’ is a bit subjective but I know what I expect it to mean in this context, and the button doesn’t do it. Not even close. Not in my library anyway.

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It is clearly a genre issue and I’m not sure what can be done about that other than paying attention and editing genres as you go. What other tool would Roon have to achieve this?
As has previously been said, Pop Rock is an all encompassing and therefore useless genre if your looking to focus. Blues works well but there are a lot of blues styles.
Perhaps ‘Moods’ would be a useful focus tool. This used to be seen in the Sooloos days or is my memory playing tricks?
You could have a mood in many genres so that may be interesting…