A few minor issues regarding the audio selector

[Carl_Henrik_Janson]

The audio selector system is looking very good, with zones and all that. Looking forward to use it in more advanced settings. I just report a few minor issues I found today:

SELECTOR NOT INSTANT
As can be seen in the first screenshot, music continues to play in the previous selected output (ATIV Default Device); the previous song “Your song”. This output continues to play through its playlist.

At the same time, after selecting Built-in Output (on another pc, should have been given another name), the newly selected song “Rainbow in Your Eyes” plays on that output. It is the same playlist.

It looks as if this “lock” on the previous track played on the previous outlet is provoked when the track is playing as one does the change to a new outlet. If nothing is playing, then the change is accepted as one returns to the dashboard for playback.

IOW, there is no instant reset to the newly selected output. What we have done in SoundPimp is to create a “refresh” button that simply brute force resets the whole system when needed, because sometimes the instant changes hangs due to operating system problematics. However, instant change is the normal case via e.g. the Asio4All driver.

PROBABLY EXCLUSIVE MODE REGARDLESS?

In the second screenshot, another issue. You see the non-exclusive selection of ATIV Speakers in Roon, causing the Asio4All selector ruled by SoundPimp to show that the same device (and the Headphone outlet) is now unavailable, i.e. the two red crosses.

This could be indicative of Roon running in exclusive mode despite this feature being unchecked. However, the other way around, starting other mediaplayers prior to starting Roon, then these outlets are selectable in the Asio4All panel. In this case, Roon may play to these outlets as well since the Asio4All is not running in exclusive mode here.

So it seems to be a partly exclusive mode defined in Roon. Correct?

[NickB (Nick Baker)]

Of course if you went to the queue and used the switch to another output option it would happen immediately.

[Ludwig (Ludwig van Marbach)]

SELECTOR NOT INSTANTAs can be seen in the first screenshot, music continues to play in the previous selected output (ATIV Default Device); the previous song “Your song”. This output continues to play through its playlist.

At the same time, after selecting Built-in Output (on another pc, should have been given another name), the newly selected song “Rainbow in Your Eyes” plays on that output. It is the same playlist.

It looks as if this “lock” on the previous track played on the previous outlet is provoked when the track is playing as one does the change to a new outlet. If nothing is playing, then the change is accepted as one returns to the dashboard for playback.

Are you talking about transferring zones? Or just selecting a different zone?

Selecting a different zone will of course not stop the music in the previous zone. It’s a multi-zone system.

Transferring a zone stops the music in the first zone and plays it further in the second zone, leaving it paused in the first. I’ve never found a use for this latter detail of the functionality, but it’s probably there for a reason.

[andybob (Andrew Cox)]

You setup Queues to play to Zones, either singly or grouped. When you start the Queue with the play controls it starts, when you stop the Queue with the play controls it stops. Looking at another Queue doesn’t start or stop anything. You can also transfer a Queue from one Zone to another.

The User Guide is of assistance with the learning curve.

[Carl_Henrik_Janson]

Yesterday it was between zones but I was unaware of that. For that case, I agree with you. Today’s screenshot show that laptop speakers are selected, but the change from the previous selection does not take place. Instead, the audio is sent to the previous selection which was the ATIV Headphones, i.e. the headphone outlet and the speaker outlet of a Samsung ATIV laptop.

If this is inter-zone, then the zone system is currently impenetrable for me because the only thing (I think) I have done, is to enable the ATIV speakers and headphones. If intra-zone, the stream should be rerouted immediately to ATIV speakers as this outlet is checked. Doesn’t happen, but when I go out of setup and click play, the stream is playing both at ATIV speakers and ATIV headphones, however not in synk. Looks like inter-zone. Maybe the user need to specify that speakers and headphone on a laptop is the same sone?

[Carl_Henrik_Janson]

Not of course to me. Somehow I unintentionally managed to create several queues. I have not yet been able to click the queue icon, then click the ATIV Speakers icon (on the right of the dashboard), and then select ATIV Headphones. Does not happen. Instead, the other queue is shown in the dashboard.

I am selecting queues indirectly, but automatically by switching audio outlet. To be honest, I am completely confused

[Carl_Henrik_Janson]

User manuals, yes indeed. Agree, but to switch between laptop speakers and headphones is an example of an operation for which I assume a user manual is not strictly necessary. I am in a queue and I want to change outlet. This looks like a two click operation which is good, but, it does not happen. Instead, I switch queue.

It looks like the switching of audio out is the way to switch between queues?

[Ludwig (Ludwig van Marbach)]

Queues are tied to outputs. Therefore to listen to your queue through a different output, transfer the queue in question to that output. It’s perfectly logical and simple, just the other way round from your concept.

Your requested way round makes sense as a single Roon user but would be utter chaos in a multi-user multi-zone environment. With everything multiplied, you need multiple queues. This is the crucial point.

I have 6 zones and up to three people are using the system simultaneously. They also transfer their queue from room to room sometimes.

[Carl_Henrik_Janson]

@Ludwig, I am sure you will convince me in the end, and I do need to learn more about the zone setup. Appologies if I am too hasty. BUT:

I have defined both speaker and headphone outlets on my Samsung ATIV as private zone, or rather, I think it is likely that Roon did that as a default setting during install (can’t remember).

I understand the principle in your description of zone complexity, and this looks very (very) nice. But why would it be utter chaos in the zone context if I do a superhumble switch from speakers to headphones here in my private zone on the laptop? Nobody would ever be interrupted by that. (I do that e.g. when the family are using “the zone area” for other matters than music, so that the zone is busy from a moral perspective

Further to that, I am absolutely willing to learn myself how to transfer a particular queue from one outlet to another, be it private or not.

[andybob (Andrew Cox)]

User Guide - Zone - Transfer Zone

[Carl_Henrik_Janson]

OK. Three things:

1. The queue transfer is a fine solution, even if intuitively, it is not unlikely that more users than me would start to believe that the clickable lower right audio output selector is the way to transer the playing stream to another outlet, in particular since these outlets are checkable. But when you know this is not the way of it, everything is ok, I suppose. What is it used for, anyway, given that audio settings are there to tune each outlet?

2. The latest days I have used Roon on this laptop, and I had trouble with transferring audio to the laptop headphone out. I use this laptop for audio development so I know this is not a normal problem. It must be restarted for headphones to work again. It seems that I am able to provoke the laptop to “lock” the headphone out. It could be Roon or Windows10, if I find something, I shall inform in this thread.

3. The main (uppermost) problem related to exclusive mode or not has not been commented on. Hopefully someone could do that. It could be related to the “locked” headphone out issue.

Thanks for help from the serviceminded people in the forum.

[andybob (Andrew Cox)]

The queue transfer is a fine solution, even if intuitively, it is not unlikely that more users than me would start to believe that the clickable lower right audio output selector is the way to transer the playing stream to another outlet, in particular since these outlets are checkable. But when you know this is not the way of it, everything is ok, I suppose. What is it used for, anyway, given that audio settings are there to tune each outlet?

The Zone switcher changes the Zone you are controlling. Each Zone has a different Queue, being the music to be played in that Zone. When you switch Zones you change the Queue you are controlling. You can also switch Zones in Audio Settings, the Zone switcher is a convenient way to do so.

The main (uppermost) problem related to exclusive mode or not has not been commented on. Hopefully someone could do that. It could be related to the “locked” headphone out issue.

As I understand it, the issue is that when you start Roon first and select ATIV Speakers in non-exclusive mode then you can’t select ATIV Speakers or Headphones in the ASIO4All screen as the output for SoundPimp.

If you start SoundPimp first, however, and then start Roon, then you can select ATIV Speakers or Headphones in the ASIO4All screen after selecting ATIV Speakers in Roon.

Is the above correct ?

[Carl_Henrik_Janson]

Yes, @andybob correct. As far as I have been able to validate the “situation”. In addition comes that Headphones out continues to be locked even id Roon has been stopped. However, the Headphones are still selectable and the green peakmeter of WIndows/CTRLPanel/Audio/playback is showing activity, but there is no sound on the headphones. It could be ruled out that something else than Roon is the sinner, though, but I find it likely and I shall watchdog this problem.

[Carl_Henrik_Janson]

The issue with “locked” outputs looks like a Roon “brute force” action beyond Windows 10 policy, which is to leave it to the user to select audio out. As far as I know there is no way to change audio out programmatically, for this reason.

The problem is twofold:

1. Audio out resources (e.g. internal speakers of a laptop) are entering a locked state as soon as Roon is launched, unless they are already in use. Or the same thing happens as soon as a Roon competitor release a resource. Roon grabs it and locks it.
2. More importantly, these resources are not released if Roon is exited.

E.g. ASIO drivers like ASIO4ALL may not select these devices unless Windows 10 is restarted, which makes this a major issue.

The default sound system of Windows 10 is not affected and may use these outlets regardless of this Roon lock.

This problem only occurs for audio outlets that have been enabled in Roon.

Could be something for the Roon developers to look into (in particular 2 above)?

Screenshot shows that ASIO4ALL may no longer connect to laptop speakers, while an alternative java audio engine selector is unaffected regarding the same output. (Sound not shown :-))

[RBM (René)]

I’m afraid I’ll be having nightmares from just have looked at that screenshot…

With all due respect: virtual sound devices, ASIO4ALL (which is a messy hack; not an ASIO driver) – I’m afraid there’s not much to be done by Roon here.

FWIW: the ‘lock’ is essential to using a hardware device in exclusive mode. Roon does release the hardware a few seconds after playing is stopped and the signal path disappears. This can also be forced directly by pressing CTRL-T/CMD-T.

[Carl_Henrik_Janson]

Regarding ASIO4ALL it is popular for a reason. It works. Roon is the only audio software I have ever seen that create this dysfunctionality (for ASIO4ALL).

It is messy to create Hi Fi sound systems on an operating system not planned for that. Confirmative.

But as I already stated above somewhere, I am not talking of the situation when Roon utilizes exclusive mode on software or hardware, on the contrary, exclusive mode is unchecked for the context I am talking about.

Thus, there should be no lock. I, the user, deliberately asked for non exclusive usage. If checked, a “lock” is good. It is then a user choice.

@RBM, would you know something about why the uncheck is not working?

I am also NOT talking about hardware, but was giving two examples on working and non working audio software drivers, hence the screenshot for those who need details.

[Rugby (aka Daniel or Big Dan)]

Completely Agree ASIO4ALL is not an ASIO driver and causes way too many problems than it solves actually. I had to nuke it from my system years ago because it caused all sorts of headaches.

[andybob (Andrew Cox)]

The uncheck IS working for everything except ASIO4ALL, no ?

There are other reports of similar behaviour with ASIO4ALL.

[Carl_Henrik_Janson]

@andybob, that’s my point. The answer is no. The uncheck is not working for any outlet (of those I have tried which are all in the private zone of the laptop, i.e. speaker and headphone as well as the SoundPimp virtual audio device, a software audio router utility)

[Carl_Henrik_Janson]

Hey @Rugby, I must suggest that if you would like to “vote down” software from other parties, as you do with ASIO4ALL, that you are extremely specific and pinpointing about your experience, because “all sorts of headaches” is not polite speech, nor is it a reliable statement. My experience with this driver is that it is typically innocent and do absolutely no harm to your computer. I often use this driver instead of native ASIO drivers from the DAC manufacturer.

Moreover, if your context is “Roon only” on your computer, it might be a relevant decision to not use ASIO4ALL, but I am talking about a Windows context on my computer also containing a lot of other stuff, even alternative audio software. In this wider, but perhaps typical context for many Roon users, I am questioning why Roon contains “lock” functionality that is beyond Windows policy. It should not.

Hence, your response is actually diluting my questions. Sorry, but please answer my questions if anything. Thanks.