Are the insults really necessary? You complain about insults from ASR members then turn around and exhibit the same behavior.
Why can’t the the topic be discussed without throwing insults (from either side)?
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Guys, this “discussion” leads to nothing but hot ears 
. These two factions are just too different. Their mindsets are too apart from each other. It’s like discussing theism. You’ll never come to a common conclusion. One is a strong believer (“prove me wrong”), the other a strong skeptic (“prove you’re right”). You may name it whatever you like but let’s live in peace. Sometimes it’s better to part. And people in general can believe in whatever they like unless they try to boil others’ brains .
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Amazing perhaps, but there is something missing if the claims are scientific: evidence. It would be awesome to review some experimental results that show what is claimed. Any papers?
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From what I posted:
THE MODERATES: Just as with politics and religion, it’s not black and white. Some have a foot firmly in both the objective and subjective side of things. Some examples are John Atkinson at Stereophile, John Siau at Benchmark Media, and to some degree, myself. We value objective measurements but also trust our ears and just because we may not hear a difference we accept someone else might. I believe those in the middle are generally the most open minded.
This might be helpful. I’m not sure what you’re adding that hasn’t been said before.
[Moderator edit: source link included]
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There is the concept of “burden of proof”, which says that the one who makes extraordinary claims (i.e. which go against knowledge and evidence) has the burden of proving them right and not the other way around, so the two factions are not on equal footing.
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I also consider myself a moderate. I believe the Earth is cylindrical, i.e. both round and flat at the same time.
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Well, I don’t see it that strict. People also have the right to strongly believe in things that are proven or very likely to be wrong. Why not? The human brain is by far not perfect. And esp. the hearing sense is neither. But, to be honest, this forum is not some sort of university campus . Esp. when it comes to solving technical issues there’s usually a lot of trial and error, i.e. belief and misbelief .
BTW, belief or misbelief are purely mental things, i.e. something that happens solely in brains. With stronger or weaker connections to the world outside of brains, i.e. since brains including the hearing sense are error-prone and deliver faults each and every day it’s sometimes hard for a brain to except its own imperfection.
And this situation is wonderful for the consumer industry selling experiences .
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Doesn’t this assume that the “evidence” is accurate? People are massively voting down something they have I suspect never even seen nevermind heard.
And as this is the internet, if someone else measured it and came up with very complimentary measurements, what happens then?
I’m sure the ASR review was measured with integrity, but were the votes placed by everyone else placed with equal integrity?
This is the internet, we should not be taking sides and endorsing any side unless we were there helping take the measurements, have taken our own measurements or have heard the product.
I mean, my favourite Italian pizza restaurant in my home town has a review on TripAdvisor from someone saying they had the worst pizza of their life there.
Keep up the good work Amir!
ASR has stopped me wasting money on expensive gear that does not perform.
I wont buy without demoing/listening (more so speakers/headphones rather than electronics). But I want high fidelity / accourate reproduction and so wont bother wasting my time listening to poorly engineered products -proven by measurement. I will start with the best of the best, often these are not that expensive.
When people yell at me to test drive a car bcause “I might like it”, but its 0-60 is 12 seconds…
Thats not to say people cant enjoy poorly engineered products, Iam sure they like it. Not everyone wants high fidelity or accouate reproduction. I actally have an old car that I treasure and no one else understands.
By the way there are much easier software ways to add H2/H3 harmonics with complete control of levels etc to your perfectly measuring $100 dac if you choose. I use E1DA for my IEMs with the free android app. I think my Okto dac can do it with the latest firmware, but have not tried yet. Now if only Roon allowed VST plugins… In fact I use Roon dsp presets to often tailor the sound to my mood. But i can only do this with a neutral close to perfect starting point.
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Point taken, although if you think that my post contained an insult you’d need a hazmat suit on to fend off the insults that are commonplace on that site. I’ve amended the post but my opinion on the way they review stuff hasn’t altered.
Anyone wants to tailor the distortion profile and expand or compress the dynamics of their music?
It’s trivial to setup a current Raspberry Pi as a DAW using free software and looping your audio data through that.
Far more possibilities for way less money.
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Yes. You need a working theory before you can put anything in practice. Evidence is not always overwhelming, but when it is, it would be foolish, wasteful or even dangerous to keep doubting it forever (e.g. climate change). And the burden of proof is not there to discourage challenging existing evidence, but rather because it’s simply not feasible or even possible to disprove every single outlandish theory in the world. More specifically, I think the science of psychoacoustics is mature enough to make me not want to a waste my time trying every single piece of equipment that challenges it based solely on personal experiences. And I certainly don’t trust my ears.
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Thats what I dont get about hardware solutions.
If its a subjective satisfaction and we are all different - how does a fixed 12dB H2 apply to everyone? What if you prefer 8dB or 15dB??
To me it defeats the purpose of what it is trying to achieve.
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I also have the right to fact-check those people and distance myself from them, because I don’t think that attitude has anything to do with being open minded.
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You have better chance of hearing my flush my toilet than distortion that is at -200 dB! Rob makes these wild claims but when I asked him if he had done any of his listening tests blind, he said no, and that it was stressful to do such tests. Yet, he says the difference is so clear to his ears. How is it that when he closes his eyes, his ears stop working?
As to AP, he uses one. And AP has no trouble measuring down to those level. My standard dashboard goes to -160 dB and that is just with 32K FFT:
Best case dynamic range of our hearing is about 115 dB. This is proven based on lowest level threshold of hearing and is not subject to debate or conjecture. Yet per above, we can measure many dBs past that with our instrumentations and signal processing. To say otherwise means you don’t know basics of psychoacoustics, how audio precision analyzers work, or both.
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Indeed. It is like advocating everyone walk around with yellow glasses on all the time. If there is audible coloration to a DAC or any audio gear, why in the heck would I want to do that with all my content?
And did the producer/talent have the same coloration when they approved the release? If not, then I don’t want that filter either. I want to hear the art as they created it, not screw with it.
But even if I want to change it, Roon has full capability to do that as every individual wants. And such processing can be turned on and off at will.
The truth though is that such manipulations were not tested at all in a controlled scenario to know if a) they are audible and b) have the effect that the designer claims. It is all an attempt at differentiation without any proof points. Notice how not a single paper is cited to defend any of this. This is why I call it all folklore. It is said enough that people think it is true and factual. You know, how you can catch a cold from cold weather in winter. That sounds right to a layman but we know that cold is caused by a virus. It is more prevalent in winter because we stay indoors and transmit it to each other, not because the air is cold. Same here. Let’s not let intuition override clear science here.
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This is a valid point.
The other thing that stresses me: If distortion is added as part of the music, Marshall amplifiers, synthesisers, Techno, Electronic Dance Music, … fine, perfect.
In the post processing, the mastering maybe, you do some modifications as part of the recording. But in a later stage and in the reproduction, it has to be clean. I do not want to add the same distortion to Mozart, Bach, Iron Maiden, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Miles Davis and everybody else.
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We can all see the effects of climate change, especially those of us who have lived in the same area for decades and can see first hand the changes to the seasons than say 50 years ago. I can for sure.
I think this is a poor comparison. People are taking someone else’s measurements at face value and voting it down without any person experience, that is the behaviour I do not like.
A bit like giving a restaurant a poor Google review because everyone else did, I’ve not visited it or tried the food though, why should I? The evidence is there that it is rubbish.
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I agree. Today’s weather report: The sun shines, blue skies in the afternoon, mild 20°C. Please vote: Is this good or bad weather, is it raining, is it hot or is it cold?
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