OK. Didn’t want to offend anyone. I recognise that my post was somewhat flippant.
It’s just that I don’t go for over-dramatic claims. Too much pathos involved here. This doesn’t mean that I doubt Florian’s sincerity.
The point of this thread is whether expensive streamers (that’s what is really meant by high-end) are worth all the fuss. It’s obviously a controversial topic.
I remain very sceptical as to the eulogistic anointment of expensive streamers in the total absence of scientific measurements and blind listening tests. Nothing to back up the hyperbolic claims, except arbitrary impressions and preferences, which, by gheir very nature, are completely subjective and don’t hold any warrant for objective universalisation.
And high-end streamers are cheap compared to the mind-boggling prices of some DACs and amplifiers (not to mention cables).
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Bill_Janssen
(Wigwam wool socks now on asymmetrical isolation feet!)
196
This is the problem with having financially interested people in these discussions. He can’t admit that the $6000 streamer he’s trying to sell works only as well as a $100 Raspberry Pi and the excellent (and free) RoPieee operating system, for USB-connected DACs. He has a fiduciary responsibility to his company and his employees to continue to insist that there’s something magical, something “high quality”, that you might (stoke uncertainty!) not get with an alternative piece of hardware. Completely understandable.
With apologies to Bernard Cornwell’s Last Kingdom books: “Marketing is all!”
“only streamers” where all sound 100% the same, no marginal differences allowed
“high quality streamers” (which sound more accurate) and “low quality streamers” (which don’t)
If we live in the first world, then use any criterion you like for streamer selection.
If we live in the second world, try to find the most high quality one you can afford. Some people notice things in recordings when played on more accurate / revealing gear versus less accurate gear. If you’ve ever spent time on the recording side, this can be frustrating to say the least.
Remember, this comes from their “marketing.”
As a scientist / engineer, can noise on the digital side of a DAC affect the analog side?
For some reason, your thread was at the top of a notification email I got from Roon the other day. Probably 100% coincidence. It’s a topic that I’m passionate about, and I took you at your word, so I jumped in.
You’re quite right to expect that, but when you read various postings here, ASR, Archimago’s blog (and others), you quickly realise, if you have an open, critical mind, that these expectations are not always (even rarely) met.
This happens only in audio.
Which makes it different from other luxury goods. Should I want to spend 200 € or more on a T-shirt, I certainly won’t expect to get the best ever T-shirt, one that’s clearly better than a regular 20 € one. Unless I’m a fool. What I expect, though, is to strut around in a T-shirt that carries prestige or street credit (at least in the eyes of those that care about things like that). With high-end audio, it’s different. Here claims are made that expensive stuff will clearly sound better – and that’s just so much taradiddle.
If one needs a “pleasant sounding” amp, something’s wrong in the rest of the system which needs covering up by adding “pleasant signal distortions” to become acceptable.
You’re repeating yourself and have not answered my earlier question. How can you tell that something “sounds more accurate”? What you’re really saying is ‘this is more expensive, ergo, it’s fundamentally “better” than something which costs less’. You’re using marketing speak to try to justify your product pricing.
No, this comes.from their measurements, which have been independently verified. Benchmark Media’s roots lie in the professional audio industry where, surprise, surprise, measurements count.
If the DAC is properly designed, then no, not within the threshold of audibility and that’s easily measured.
Indeed, and it provides you with a presumably healthy income. I asked the question, because I was genuinely curious as to whether I was fundamentally missing something. Are you implying that I was lying in my original post? You still haven’t provided any rational scientific or engineering argument as to how or why an expensive streamer does things better than a cheaper one. All you keep repeating is how much more “accurate” it sounds, which is pure marketing ■■.
I have no employees and extremely little fiduciary responsibility, thank you very much.
I started on this journey trying to prove that linear regulated power supplies could not have an effect on the digital side of digital audio. I met a ton of amazing engineers along the way and learned that circuit design involves much more than Ohms and Farads.
I can’t admit it because I have no idea if it’s true. I have not used this device + OS in my system.
Wow. People, this is getting ugly. If you all want to be right about this you will never understand the other. Calm down take a stroll and listen to some music. This is pathetic.
I doubt you could name a single component that might force anyone down that path. It is a pretty illogical assertion. People might prefer 2nd harmonics or a house smile on their frequency response. But that will be people exercising choice.
It’s not a case of wanting to be right. It’s about pragmatism, truth, calling out BS and ridiculous claims that combining electronic components on a circuit board can somehow exhibit “magical” properties that cannot be explained by science, engineering or measurement. You have to “hear” it to believe it. It’s 2022 AD people, not 22 BC.
I am using a Metrum Ambre (Roon Tested) which is built ‘around’ a RPi. I have tried a few and found better connectivity options (i2s) and lower noise floor. I refuse to use USB.
Can you show me where I’m saying that? (I think our communication is suffering from a lack of accuracy)
Nope. You’re trying to gauge if there is a gain from spending more money on a streamer. I’m trying to help you gauge that.
If you have a DAC with I2S inputs, you may find there is a gain by using a streamer with I2S outputs. Those tend to be “more expensive” and according to you, “High End.” Find one you can try in your system and return if you do not like it.
If your DAC only has USB, then try as many USB devices as streamers as you can. If they all sound exactly the same, and your sample set was big enough, then there is likely no gain in using a high end streamer. If any 2 USB streamers sound the slightest bit different, then there probably is a gain in using a higher quality streamer, which may or may not be “High End” (High Price).
Bill_Janssen
(Wigwam wool socks now on asymmetrical isolation feet!)
211
Oh, I don’t know about that. I suspect we understand “the other” all too well. That’s the problem.
I doubt, you can falsify me naming speakers as being the most likely candidates.
Funnily it happens more often than not that tweakophiles, sinking disproportionally extreme amounts of money into electronics, are distasting DSP room correction due to inexplicable obsession with bit-perfectness and preserving manufacturer component-voicing.
USB isn’t the problem - it’s how your DAC handles USB that’s the problem. As others have said, I2S is an internal protocol that shouldn’t be externalised over a cable.
A lot of the “solutions” in digital audio are a necessary response to poorly designed DACs.
Same old same old audiophile fall back position, which quite frankly I’m tired of hearing/reading about.
First @Florian_Theuer you DO NOT anything, as in absolutely nothing, about my or anyone else posting on this thread, audio system. Perhaps I’m using a DIY pi streamer on hyper expensive audiophile approved system or maybe my system is comprised of mass market equipment. The point is that you just don’t know so please stop trying to belittle those of us who just don’t buy into your line of reasoning.
In the case of audio streamers the science is on the side of those who say that high priced audio streamers do not sound any different from low priced audio streamers. Pointing out feature sets is fine but features and ease of use are different from sound quality. And pointing out differences in DACs, while useful, again does not address the issue of sound quality of various audio streamers. Please stay focused on the issue at hand. Thanks!
Yes, that is the line that I particularly dislike, I have seen plenty of that line of defense on some other forums (e.g. Naim) where the poster cannot explain or justify why a sum of > $10,000 is spent / wasted on some supposedly hi-end ethernet cable or some sort of re-clocker network switch.
They may well but they usually measure poorly due to the pis poor implementation and poor clock and won’t outperform an outboard via USB. I2s need a good clock lick spdif does to perform well.I have a few DAC hats myself they are fine in some situations but not for my main listening usb is used here or my Roon Ready amp.
