Best native DSD DACs for use with HQPlayer?

Yeah, coming up with the names is hard. And originally “super” was the “best”. But now you could also think “super heavy”, “light” and “ultra light”.

But over time I discover better and better how different subjective aspects correlate with different aspects in the mathematical formulas. Several decades on these formulas, and still discovering.

You know, I keep going between the modulators over time and finding “this is interesting, I know the mathematical difference, and I know what I hear”. And I know the differences from objective and mathematical perspective. And over time my view on these things develop further. But someone (unnamed) else would tell you that the differences are inaudible. You can decide, it is pretty easy to switch between and try!

Advanced modulators are very complex animals. That is also one reason DAC chip manufacturers and companies making their own modulators say practically nothing about modulators, but babble about digital filter all day long.

As an example, if you look at the table on ESS website:

This is three different modulators, almost nothing said about these. And I can tell the difference is certainly more than 0 dB difference in SINAD and 1 dB difference in DNR.

More interesting is the output resistance which defines the ultimate noise floor level (higher the resistance, higher the thermal noise).

AKM has four modulators in AK4191 front-end chip, but those are just numbered 1, 2, 3 and 4. That’s it.

But it is absolutely interesting domain to work in. And these are precisely things where high clock rates help, because you cannot do many of these things in parallel processors due to mathematical relations. So nothing beats clock cycles (cycles/instructions per output sample). And we have just got past 6 GHz barrier.

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For E30ii my concern was completely different

DSD256 non-DSD Direct

vs

DSD256 DSD Direct

Can you show this for A26 ?

I don’t bother looking at PCM44.1kHz inputs anymore :smile: I think it’s been 12+ months since I did that. it’s a waste of time

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Not sure I have anything sensible stored for A26 case. Tons of non-working ones, and only few random ones from working firmware. I was just happy when it worked and didn’t really focus on storing the results. I don’t store each and every measurement I do, it would be huge amount of things one cannot figure out about later. I store things only if I find it particularly interesting for some reason, or if I specifically intend to post it online (rarely these days).

Hmmm but it still doesn’t address the concern of DSD256 Direct on vs off for AKM DACs…

You mentioned:

This would be a real disaster if DSD256 looked like PCM44.1kHz but doesn’t make sense to me how this would be possible…

If AKM handles DSD256 in a similar way to ESS, how can it possibly look like PCM44.1kHz input?

DSD256 input:

44.1k input:

You know this is not “DSD Direct”… Not anything even near.

Essentially this converts DSD256 to 176.4k PCM.

Which DAC is this though?

The image is quite high up

Wait are you showing that the A26 doesn’t do DSD?

@jussi_laako For the 44.1k, is it with the “NOS” filter (i.e. the “Super Slow Roll-off” filter)?

One more thing, I am getting more and more interested in these kinds of measurements. If I would like to do similar measurements at home, what’s the h/w and s/w required? Is there any buget setup that I can get? Thanks.

With these measurements, I am not sure why a lot of people in ASR still believe that there is NO measurements/evidence that upsampling 44.1k PCM to DSD256 does make the music sound better. :thinking: Looks like they just don’t like DSD. period.

I think it would be useful if a general agreement could be reached as to what measurements are useful, what they mean, what is audible etc for different bits of kit (DAC, amp etc). but its probably not as easy as it sounds (no pun intended) and I am probably hopelessly naive. Its such an emotive subject…

I wouldn’t get too carried away at just one plot.

Otherwise you become just like what the anti-ASR crowd say, obsessed over one metric.

If you want to obsess over one plot, here is something cleaner than all the plots above, and only need low power machine to produce it. And no joke, but it is a Pi4 HAT with balanced outputs @Cameron_Rector :slight_smile:

Point of the story is don’t obsess over one plot. Look at the range of measurements I showed for Cyan2 - I showed 7 different measurements to capture different kinds of performance metrics… Just like ASR does, a suite of measurements :wink:

Totally agree that we should not obsess with just one plot. Good music depends on a lot of different factors.

Having said that one plot is good enough to prove that DSD256 could potentially improve over basic 44.1k PCM (at least under some conditions) as DSD-haters always said DSD is not good (except just for marketing). It is just simple logic.

To be honest, I understand that sometimes simple logic may not be easily understood. LOL,

It is with the linear-phase sharp roll-off filter.

Spring 3 or T+A DAC 200 running at DSD512 is cleaner than that plot…

You know they even don’t know what they are talking about, or are not truthful, if they say something like that. Because you cannot generalize DSD such way. There are many ways to produce a DSD stream, and many ways to turn it into analog.

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I’m still outta the loop here on this measurement. So we have no DSD direct with the A26 even with the firmware fix? Conversion to pcm?

With firmware fix it works correctly at DSD256 and DSD128.

The plot I was showing is the case when it is NOT working correctly with AK4191+AK4499EX combination.

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Whew! Maybe a little heads up next time brother!
I’m already on edge because you won’t make a dac for us!

:sweat_smile: @dabassgoesboomboom just wanted to see how non-working situation may look like.

There are good ones on the market alread. And I’m 110% occupied already doing the software. So it is hard to find time for designing hardware, given that I already work about 16 hours a day, 7 days a week…

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There’s absolutely no point to argue with those guys. They will go as far as saying ppl who prefers DSD are delusional, it makes zero differences, foobar is free and can do the exact same upsampling and more and ended up closing a thread on DSD upsampling there…

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Not sure if you are talking about the same thread: Is there any budget DAC for DSD1024?.

That was me who kicked off the discussion. Ended up they don’t like the discussion and brutally stopped the thread. LOL.

BTW, what’s speical about DSD512? I believe that the DAC makers just need to make the DSD Direct flag ON (from ‘0’ to ‘1’) to enable DSD Direct. If they know how to do it for DSD128/256, they should know how to do it with DSD512. Did I miss something here? :thinking: