For a lot of Chopin’s catalogue he wrote small sets of 3 or 4
In this example which is correct
Waltzes(3) Op.70: No.11 in G flat Major Op.70 No.1 ( no 11 of all his waltzes)
Waltzes(3) Op.70: No.1in G flat Major Op.70 No.1(no 1 in op.70)
Waltz for piano No.11 in G flat Major Op.70 No.1
When I look for this work I see all 3 versions, so I never see all my versions together???
What does Grouping do ?
It puts all versions under the Versions tab if you have Show Hidden Albums set to No
Some grouping tags have the Compostion in them , so not grouping albums
It’s not a tag I use , not sure where it came from , obviously not Roon ?
Oh, track grouping. I misunderstood and have no idea about this
I may have misunderstood but the grouping of the Op. 70 waltzes is controlled by the WORK tag.
If you want all your performances of the No. 1 waltzes all identified as individual walzes and grouped together then put:
Waltz for piano No. 11 in G flat major, Op. 70/1, CT. 217
But if you want the 3 waltzes identified as a complete opus and grouped together put:
Waltzes (3) for piano, Op. 70, CT. 217-219
My experience is that if you do not do this editing step in these sorts of cases then what roon will do is often unpredictable ranging from no id, to a partial opus id (e.g. single waltz) to a compete opus id (e.g. groups of waltzes). It is also the case that these alternative composition identification options are not always available in all cases with all composers that have similarly grouped etudes, preludes, nocturnes, waltzes etc.
I tend to do use both options as I prefer to have a single waltz etc. available for shuffles and playlists and other times I want to play the compete opus:
I opted for the grouping by op.70 and 3 sub opus and changes all waltzes to suit
Roon doesn’t honour that and still gives me a mix as your screenshot shows is like mine. If the 3 works are adjacent tracks it seems to group them otherwise it doesn’t.
I cant find any reference that indicates which is correct if either is ?
Which performance(s) are not grouping as expected? I might have them and I can cross-reference the behaviour of my roon with yours.
The correct reference can be found on allmusic, but I routinely swap partial and complete opus references depending on whether I have them in a playlist or not.
Try Maria Joao Pires early set , that shows individual works, Dina Lipatti is grouped
I only have one album with the Pires Op. 70:
As you can see, on disk 3, the Op. 70 waltzes are split across tracks 6, 11, 12, so they are not contiguous.
If I click on the composition id “16” they both refer to the same complete 3 waltz opus:
But you can also see that the track 6 singleton does not use the “Walzes (3)” group composition wording. This is an annoying peculiarity of roon that singleton’s like this retain their individual composition wording even when they are pointing to a grouped composition. Is this maybe what you are seeing?
But you should be able to have it either way. Because the waltzes are not grouped on disk anyway this is actually a case where I much prefer separate id’s for each waltz, so I have edited the WORK tags accordingly and I end up with this, with different composition counts for each waltz:
BTW. This is also a good example where the composer did not compose the music as a group. They were composed 13 years apart and it was a posthumous decision by the publisher to group them. This is what roon itself has to say:
I like having the flexibility to group or not. So I am a bit puzzled why it is not working for you.
I use COMPOSITION and MOVEMENT , just started that way pre Roon , I wonder if I have some WORK / PART tags set to the opposite ,
Still using the Op 70, the Work tag and Part Tag are empty but there is a Tag [Grouping] set to “Waltzes (3) Op.70 CT. 217 - 218” not sure where that came from . Maybe I used SongKong on it , can’t recall . It’s odd as I never use the CT catalogue number.
My Maria Joao Pires is also the early years box
I think I need advice @Joel -
if I select prefer File
What will Roon do If [Work] is set , use it and not look for [Composition] , and the same order [Part] and [Movement]
How does Roon handle/use [Grouping] if at all
Should I abandon Composition/Movement in favour of Work /Part ? It’s not a lot of work other than BackUp copies, would that keep everything in line. All 4 are Custom tags in JRiver where I do my editing
Ok. That explains it. I just assumed you were using WORK/PART tags. I don’t know how roon interprets COMPOSITION/MOVEMENT tags and I have no idea what a Grouping tag is. Perhaps @joel can shed some light.
If the composition is identified, roon will translate your naming convention into an entirely different canonical form that it gets from Tivo. So in most cases your performances should be renamed.
For example, both Waltzes (3) Op.70 CT. 217 - 218 and the alternate form Waltz for piano No. 11 in G flat major, Op. 70/1, CT. 217 come from Tivo. But you can see what roon is going to use on allmusic as that is also using Tivo canonical conventions, e.g:
If you are not seeing this renaming then you must have a lot of unidentified compositions? I find it quite common that I have to re-edit my tags to comply with the Tivo canonical forms in order to get a composition identification. It will soon be 7 years I have been migrating from JRiver. A ways to go yet.
I suspect if Roon sees a WORK tag it gives up trying to match COMPOSITION, I don’t have Work visible so I would never know .
The Grouping Tag I have seen in SongKong , I assume from MusicBrainz , but I don’t use SongKong that often , certainly not enough to explain the 10k tracks I see with the Grouping tag set , I assume it must be set in the base file set - who knows ? It’s not even logical, on one disc half is set to “Romantic” the other half to the WORK name …
I suppose Logic suggests I follow the AllMusic naming convention , it if is going to overwritten to that . That is a big undertaking for my library.
Maybe I just give up and let Roon do it and not worry
Pretty Please @Joel can you clarify
If you set WORK/PART tags using your COMPOSITION/MOVEMENT conventions roon will identify a fair number but there will be gaps. How many will depend on how difficult roon finds parsing your conventions.
So I haven’t set all my WORK/PART tags to allmusic but wherever the composition has not been identified by roon that is pretty much the first thing I do. I did try using Songkong but I found it very difficult to use and gave up years ago. It is possible that it automates the process of populating unrecognised WORK/PART tags if its used in the right way but I never got that far.
Always available to try and help, @Mike_O_Neill if you could run SongKong Status Report on the album and then run Create Support Files I may be able to give some insight.
I’ll do that, last time I tried SK I had a problem getting my license to work, I’ll let you know
Thanks @Mike_O_Neill but the status report you have sent me is for https://musicbrainz.org/release/68568e48-336e-3914-ac90-ea0ea3b757ec which seems to be a different release with different works to what you are discussing would be best if you could run a status report for the actual files being discussed or we may draw incorrect conclusions.
