Classical (metadata) via roon/tidal

Roon Software Discussion TIDAL
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Hi,

I’m thinking about using Roon but have not decided yet.

When reading through older topics here, I have seen some of you praising searchability and metadata of the Roon/Tidal combination for classical music.

I’m curious: what setup are you classical Roon/Tidal users running? From my experience Tidal is a total mess when it comes to tagging Works/Composer/Soloists/Conductor? I even have an Idagio subscription for Classical, because I can’t find what I’m looking for on Tidal (which I use for other genres)

Cheers!

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Classical music search/discovery is, imo, by far Roon’s weakest point. It is no better, or worse than Tidal, or Qobuz in this respect. They are all reliant on the data the labels provide, although there is some editorial work from some of Roon’s metadata partners. Some of it is quite good, but some is really not, and genera classifications are hopelessly inconsistent.

Classical is uniquely ill-suited to a pure search paradigm; there are simply too many variables. drill-down search works much better, but alas, that seems to have entirely disappeared from most music apps (Apple Classical makes an attempt). You can hack-together something in Roon that sort of emulates true drill-down, but I don’t find it a quality experience.

in sum, bad data in, middling efforts to normalize, and a UX designed for pop/rock equals a bad classical music experience.

still, as I write this I’m listening to Macbeth streaming from Tidal in Roon, and it sounds pretty good.

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My classical is not tagged, and years ago I wrote a program to tag data before loading it into Roon. Overall, I would place the composer into the artist tag in ‘lastname, first’ format and then set the artist sort setting the same. I understand some feel strongly this is not the way to use Roon! Roon Support told me that artist sort setting used the literal string value instead of an internal object, but that could change, and no longer work as I expected. I get it, but it worked for me then.

Does anyone use composer to sort the album display? Also, how did that work with intermingled non-classical? Thanks.

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This is how Roon behaves. Others argue that the composer is not the artist, and this should include the performer(s).

I find tagging classical challenging for a number of reasons, so have parked this for now, as I am re-cataloguing my contemporary music first.

The following release is tagged how I like, but sometimes Roon overrides local tagging unless I leave it unidentified. To get things right often requires a commitment to MusicBrainz. For example, I and someone else spent time and effort adding this release to the metadata provider.

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Thanks for the response. I’m not interested in tagging per se, but only getting my classical displayed how I want. I’ve also had that experience of setting Roon to use the file and it not doing so. I’m wondering if what I described above will still work, using the artist “lastname, firstname” sort. Years ago Support told me that could change.

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You can set Roon to prefer your tags, but that isn’t the same as use your tags.

You shouldn’t need to tag lastname, firstname as this is handled by SORTORDER. Unfortunately, to get things displayed how you like, you will inevitably need to visit tags, and update the metadata providers.

I have a few hundred rock and blues albums to tag before I pick up opera and classical. I’m not looking forward to this as a very high percentage will likely take an hour on MusicBrainz because fewer releases seem to be in this database. This means Roon uses (poor) metadata provided by the labels.

So, for now, I spin classical LPs or CDs if I want a change from contemporary genres.

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That would be me !! (and several other die hards)

I have my classical collection set with a [Composer] tag , originally a custom tag in JRiver but now a fairly common tag all round . Custom tags are supported in MP3Tag and TagScanner (both Free) so there is no excuse ( :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp: Cheeky).

I also have [Genre] , my version, [Sub Genre], [Composition], [Movement], [Orchestra], [Conductor], [Choir] and [Soloists] - YES it was a labour of love getting that populated in the first case , small additions are now minor additions. A legacy from my earlier days with JRiver which I still keep up to date with the help of appropriate tools.

Composer in my case is Surname only , its only really Bach, Schumann that have issues , maybe Boris Tchaikovsky (Who ??) and Mozart’s dad.

BTW Roon (I stand to be corrected) only supports Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart or Mozart not Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus or Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus (Dates - Dates) which is quite common. Any corrections to these versions come from Roon’s metadata source

I use Artist as effectively Track Artists so pianist etc . Album Artist for an overall Artists . Eg a Brendel album with the Cleveland Quartet has both in the Artist Tag BUT only Brendel in the Album Artist.

I am a little cheeky yes as most record labels including DG and Decca / Philips still put Composer in the artist tag , but not ALWAYS !! so who am I to dictate accuracy.

In terms of searching for “that record to listen” I tend to go via Artists then Composer as opposed to Composer then Artist.

I very rarely ( 1 in 100 maybe) use search , as there are far too many variables to make sensible suggestions.

I use the Artist View and type 3-4 chars to get to a short list .Then goto Discography and hence the disc .The “Filter Funnel” is your friend rather than the magnifying glass.

On occasions I use Composer I use the Composition View , add the composer then filter on the Composition field until I find the composition I want . Then I look for the recording of choice.

I occasionally use the Composer View , then Composition and then the filter funnel to refine to work and then album. Messier hence why I use Artist mostly. I have created a Tag of my top 20 Artists to make life easier.

In Roon there are many ways to skin the cat (sorry cat lovers) but you find your own , these are mine

I have an extensive , comprehensive classical library and have been using Roon happily for 9 years using the Roon Tools provided with the metadata provided I have most preferences set to prefer Roon, I am too lazy to edit tags these days.

Time is better spent listening (I am currently multitasking with Hogwood’s Brandenburgs)

My advise (you guessed) is let Roon do the heavy lifting and learn how Roon’s presentation of the result can be manipulated to your desires.

Being REALLY CHEEKY , if you are new to Roon I would be happy to help “clean up your act” :smiling_imp:

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Thanks Mike, and I share your overall thoughts about spending time on tags. I have the minimal metadata I need built into my folder structure, and as long as I can see a composer and artwork, that’s all I really need. My music is well organized. I don’t keep tags but used to add them programmatically before loading to Roon, based on the folder structure, but this is not a particularly important point I wish to make here. I recently loaded into Roon all my 25k or so untagged tracks, and things were a mess. That said, and in all fairness, I should give it another shot. I’m getting a new server where I’ll have to use Roon.

I’m used to seeing my music organized by artist/composer then album.

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If you haven’t loaded Roon yet , now would be a good time to change.

Maybe copy your library to a USB drive , 25k should be < 1TB at a guess so financially breaking .
Then adjust the ARTIST / COMPOSER thing before you import , most tag editors will allow bulk / multi disc editing so it’s not that big a chore . You may be surprised .

But I am biased :rofl:

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Unfortunately, for some reason, Roon changed this to a magnifying glass. Nuts decision.

Since classical only accounts for ~5% of my collection, I use the Composer page as my entry point.

This is where I’m at, and it’s evident that you either live with what Roon does out-of-the-box, or invest time organizing your file tags.

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You are right , the Text says Filter but the Icon is a Magnifying glass , well spotted Sherlock

I agree a changeback to the Filter Funnel is called for. In fact it clashes with the same Icon for Search

OK “Filter is your Friend” :smiling_imp:

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About 2.5TB, and I already have them on a 4TB SSD. I did this a few months ago and it was mess. But thanks for your willingness to be helpful.

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Let’s face it - classical music tagging is a mess. Trying to find a particular Beethoven recording only to discover one digital library has mislabeled the maestro as “Beethoven, Ludwig van” in one place and “van Beethoven, Ludwig” in another. Then there is the Rachmaninoff vs. Rachmaninov debacle, like a linguistic knife fight in a smoky alley. First names, last names - it’s a hall of mirrors where every reflection mocks your sanity.
Now personally, I don’t want chaos in my own digital library, I want order, elegance, simplicity. I want my music catalog to work, not just on the polished screen of my streamer tablet app at home, but in the harsh sunlight of my car’s infotainment system, the cramped quarters of my smartphone app, and the labyrinthine depths of music server software. Call me old-fashioned, but I want my digital library to mirror my CD shelf: artist, album, performer, and in classical music composer, album, performer. It’s not rocket science. It’s Bach and Beethoven, not the Tonhalle Zürich Orchesta.

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My simple yet functional solution? Stick to the basics. When I started to tag my own music, I first stripped away the clutter and focused on a few core tags. My files are all lossless/high-res ALAC files and iTunes was my starting point and remains my base camp to this day, as the tags that work there work like a charm across all other platforms. Including, by the way as I’ve found out, Roon.
• Album Artist: The composer. Johann Sebastian Bach, plain and proud. (The “Album Artist” tag is almost universally interpreted as “The Main Artist you want to find this $%$%§! thing under”. So it’s Madonna or Miles Davis or Gustav Mahler)
• Artist: The performer. Murray Perahia (I do want and need performer credits, especially in classical recordings, where I need to distinguish one recording from another)
• Composer: Because Bach should always be Bach. There he is again.
• Album Title: The simple truth. “Bach: Goldberg Variations, BWV 988 / Perahia.”

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So it’s the essentials. And it gives me the folder structure I want. The result? A library that works in harmony across devices and systems, from the home to the road and beyond. AssetUPnP, Minimserver, iTunes, MusicBee, my car, my wife’s car… everywhere. Including Roon.

Now I enjoy all the extra information that Roon introduces, and all the extra tags, but my “base camp” stays and works no matter where I take it. So far at least. Roon identifies the recordings correctly - most of the time - and adds some of its own stuff, great, that’s why I’m here.

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But when I switch to something else, the system still works smoothly as it should. (Here: Minimserver with HiFi Cast on Android)

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Let us say it is in contradiction with roon´s native metadata sourced from Xperi and MusicBrainz. Tagging everything the way you suggest might work but risk is high lots of albums slip through and are not visible on a composer´s page anymore.

Have much better experience with adopting to the tagging scheme which is already there. I find it very annoying if albums are not shown in the ´Composed by´ section of the composer.

Have never tried it but would guess it leads to utter confusion as roon will always take its own metadata into account as well. Never managed to have all my classical albums sorted by conductor as for some albums roon is prioritizing the orchestra rather than the conductor as primary artist.

That is to be expected. If you have the same album coming in from a streaming service, it might even be more difficult to really suppress internal tags in roon.

After a long period of headache with tagging my classical collection I finally managed to bring the most important local classical albums (around 2,000) to perfection in roon and added Qobuz. The browsing experience is marvelous as you increasingly start using composer´s pages, composition lists, recordings per composition and alike with various focus funnel options. It is really much more powerful browsing compared to just sorting albums and adding primary artists.

There are metadata issues particularly with composition details, for example complete recordings of multi-part compositions being not recognized as complete or parts thereof being falsely files as complete manyfold. But these cases are not as common and annoying as they used to be, and I really recommend everyone to try it.

Try Suzuki´s! They are a delight, all 6!

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Most classical album titles start with composer eg Beethoven: Piano Concertos so sort as you want as long as you leave them alone

The only confusion is when initials are added like J S Bach etc. I tend to rename these to just Bach

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Good idea, but unfortunately most of record labels and MusicBrainz contributors seemingly are not following this scheme but leaving out the composer´s name or starting with the first name.

So if you do not rename all your albums titles and make sure for every single one of them that roon has accepted the new title, you might end up in having lots of albums being positioned not where you expect them to be. Not to speak of samplers, recitals and other albums containing the work of several composers.

If I want to sort by composer I found it easier to use the composer list with its dedicated discography, the composition list sorted by composers or focus filter for particular composers in album overview. The composition list is showing little thumbnails of the album´s front covers so it is a similar browsing experience to what you are suggesting.

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Quite true, however, when I came to Roon, I already had a lof of classical recordings tagged just like that (starting with composer last name for standard fare), and Roon usually had no trouble identifying the albums correctly. Roon looks at your albums and a number of Metatags, then compares to a database the number of tracks and track timings, and usually finds the correct album. So far, it seems to me that the number one reason why Roon might not identify an album correctly right away even though it is in its database is when the track timings it finds differ from the track timings of the actual album, or when it cannot decide between two similar albums which one to pick.

Of course, composer list is also quite useful and allows looking at recordings by composer.

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That is correct, changing the album title does not affect roon´s ability to recognize the album correctly. I was more referring to roon´s preference for album titles which is not always a clear choice even if the album is identified correctly and you set it to prioritize local tags.

Can confirm this and might want to add that inconsistent primary artist name, number of tracks or disc number might lead to the same problems with albums not being identified automatically or split into several parts.

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ASFAIK Roon uses an algorithm based on track timings to generate a unique key and only refers to file based tags id that fails. No one has ever directly confirmed that it’s just gleaned from impressions here.

There is a simailar AcousticID in MusicBrainz

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Whilst this may be true*, if a release is in Musicbrainz, it is trivial to change this for local media since the title is easily changed automatically using the available metadata. Of course, streaming media is another matter.

*Since the composer isn’t usually a performer, and most CDs headline with the composer, followed by the release title or work, I think Composer: work is an acceptable form for the title, e.g., Mozart: Clarinet Concerto / Basoon Concerto …

This release, just added, doesn’t follow the official guidelines, which is always an issue with crowd sourcing. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if the title is amended – nonethless, the contribution of the original editor is valuable.

We can all do our bit by creating a Musicbrainz account, and making changes to the database, however small.