Feedback on Nucleus

<perhaps a favored libation while reading, due to length>

This was one of the reasons that caused (in my use case) to veer away from the Nucleus. Really wanted to go down the path of a Nucleus, but when you read the next paragraph - it starts to become obvious why the Nucleus just wasn’t an option.

Source storage is on a rather large NAS (ZFS RAIDZ3 for data integrity and data survival with a replica). However wanted a mechanism to periodically replicate music (and playlists) from the NAS to the Nucleus so that it would have everything local for playback. Then changes to files on the NAS would [periodically] replicate over. Unfortunately (and understand why), the Nucleus server option only supports a limited number of interactions for music source and having the music locally for playback means that there wouldn’t be a dependency - it would perform “as originally intended”. Solution (in this use case) was a supported NUC with 32GB of RAM (more than needed but assured headroom) with enterprise grade storage (over-provisioned) via an M.2 NVMe (OS/database) and a SATA SSD (local music files and m3u8 playlist storage only), inside a fan less case (with massive heat sinks). Then using rsync so that the NUC replicates (logical “pull only”) from the NAS every couple of hours - adding and removing files on the NUC’s local storage drive, to remain in sync.

Admittedly, a bit different from your issue/situation however having to ‘convert’ everything would be a monumental task. Well over 90% of the files are fully tagged in Apple’s ALAC m4a format while the balance are fully tagged mp3 files (tagging in both cases is done via MusicBrainz Picard, includes embedding album artwork - re-ripping from CD is still not complete, hence the mp3s). While flac continues to garner some excellent support, it’s still not as widely supported as m4a. Such as being able to play/use natively in the Apple ecosystem or use “as is” in in-vehicle storage for audio (not via phone). For more portable uses, connecting a dongle-based DAC to iPhone. Said differently, whatever works across your use cases is the route you should go - there’s no single answer, only the “right” answer in your context. Once you get started on that path it will be a LOT of work, but in the end it will pay dividends with how you continue to enjoy your collection.

The guidance of being [at minimum] album centric is sage. Tend to use a
[A-Z]<Artist><Album>\ hierarchy, with each track being something along the lines of:
artist-album-cd#-track#-name
cd# only if the album is more than one disc. Have a “cover.jpg” in each album directory along with that same file as a “Folder.jpg” file for completeness. This also helps to ensure that whatever player is used (Roon/Apple Music/Audirvana/…) has the best chance of being able to readily read/update it’s local database without issue. That structure seems to have worked particularly well across a wide array of playback options. Roon definitely has ZERO issues with it, even with a collection into the many 10s of thousands - likely folks with far larger collections (size, quantity and/or both). Still haven’t exceeded the storage capacity of a 1TB iPhone - yet. Hoping that a 2TB model will arrive before 1TB is insufficient.

Once you start playing with Roon, it can become quite addictive. The two primary aspects seem to be simplicity for ambient/non-critical listening (Bluesound and similar where everything can be controlled from the Roon app, with a “once and done” optimizing for sound quality) and getting drawn into the additional information that Roon populates around artists and albums. (Having gotten lost a few times, for hours listening to music and perusing information…)

One side thought about “conversion” from one format to another - this can actually degrade the resultant audio (historically this was certainly case, not sure if things have been able to overcome this). Premise is that whatever format you standardize on - just rip from source to that format to avoid potential degradation that may be incurred as a result “conversion”. Furthermore, every storage medium is subject to bit-rot. eg: over time, at a very low level you will have bits that change 1->0 or 0->1. Generally, this won’t be noticeable until there’s a sufficient number of these in a localized part of the storage media. This is where ZFS comes in. For brevity/simplification, ZFS will correct bit-rot so that you don’t end up with degradation over time. (rsync’s hashing algorithm likely wouldn’t catch such low level deviations until they’re more significant in which case the local media [on the Roon server] may also start exhibiting more visible signs of wear, etc. or the fact that rsync reveals constant re-write due to change on the Roon as an early indicator of an issue).

As far as issues - keeping the OS up to date (weekly at minimum), sometimes have run into an error where Roon barks about a database issue (it says to restore the database) but a reboot clears this. Appears to happen randomly, every couple of days to every couple of weeks. Probably something related to a minor change in a dependency and either a subsequent Roon update or OS/App update resolves the issue? Other is the more recent constant “metadata improver paused” - this used to work quite well but something changed. It demands some deeper inspection, as last time this was looked at - seem to recall that Roon was attempting to circumvent the locally configured DNS servers (that have proper security mechanisms) and go direct to open resolvers on the Internet (a security “no-no”), which is blocked - may be part of the issue.

Getting the feeling that this is a bit much for the purposes of @Dennis_Kaniger at this point. It can be made this complicated but it doesn’t have to be.

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I’ve moved your comment into the feedback category @A_Sharp. While we appreciate you taking the time to share your experience, it doesn’t belong in the technical support category - posting your feedback in the Feedback channel will ensure it receives the proper eyes. :+1:

@Suedkiez is correct regarding @A_Sharp 's post. A bit much for me though I certainly appreciate the post (and the libation while reading) it brings up a point for me and perhaps some observations appropriate to the Roon authors. For myself, not wanting to store all my audio on my computer drive, I was thinking the Nucleus was just the right way to go. But with all these headaches (and a three month wait for the thing) why NOT just have gone with a NAS? And at this time, that is where I’m at. Thank you

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You and I seem to share a philosophy although I was never interested in a Nucleus.

Verbosity? :rofl:

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Might be that too! :wink:

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Agreed on philosophy.

RE: Nucleus. It’s pragmatic that Roon wouldn’t try to support every possible combination of protocols and options, out there. Hence the need for deviation. Admittedly the “TItan” (in metal) looks exquisite but without requisite functionality in ROCK, it becomes a non-op and adding functionality for “just one person” would be absurd (to say the least). Agree that a NAS offers superior data heuristics however if you need to reboot or perform service on it, why interrupt the music? <grin>. In reality, quality storage is fairly cheap and having a local [replicated] copy just simplifies use logistics. If ROCK eventually includes rsync (for rsyncd based sync) and the ability to over-provision all SSD/NVMe drives - would expect to see a Nucleus purchase in my future.

Hmmm… This is not accurate… The only enterprise that i know of that refutes the use of FLAC as an open, portable format is Apple.

And, to be correct, .m4a is a container, it can be “stuffed” with basically anything, and hence, it is not a very good container.

Apple eco-system users are still a minority on this globe, whether you or i like it or not.

Why do you need to rsync on the Nucleus? You can run it on your Apple device?

And even then, QuickTime, macOS Finder, and iOS Files play back FLAC with no issues.

This is done by the drive firmware in all modern drives AFAIK. Just don’t fill it up.

rsync is to sync the music archive to the Nucleus (from the NAS) - not Apple devices.

For clarity, some vendors it’s via a firmware configuration and most will automatically utilize “never partitioned” space.

Over-provisioning as classically known is not automatic (as inferred) on any SSD/NVMe - including enterprise variants. Most drives do have some sort of hold back for re-mapping and controller operations, but depending on use case - is often insufficient. In order to over-provision you must start with an un-partitioned device (may require factory tools to fully/properly reset) and then you create a partition that is ~75% of the drive’s capacity (holding back 25% of the drive that has “never been” partitioned - once partitioning, even if deleted, it can no longer be utilized for this purpose). The unpartitioned space is used to re-map sectors as they age/fail, the drive’s algorithms will also use this space to buffer I/O (write amplification factor), etc. Giving up 25% of the total usable space for this purpose can increase endurance to upwards of double. Again, depends on use case and percentage of space allocated to over-provisioning.

In the end, it is up to user to decide which path they prefer.

Some sample reference material directly from two storage vendors:

Only doubling down on the frustration that their own eco-system avoids it.

I know what overprovisioning is. My point is what your first link says:

Users should also consider that an SSD in service is rarely completely full. SSDs take advantage of this unused capacity, dynamically using it as additional over-provisioning.

Only if the “unused” space was never partitioned. Once the space is part of the area partitioned - it no longer qualifies for use.

This is exactly not what this is saying. Read the link?

You can map a volume on the NAS, and then use rsync on that device to “get” or “put” files on the Nucleus share. You don’t need a rsync daemon running on the Nucleus for that. (And there are dozens of similar tools and GUI’s should you desire)

Current setup is that the NAS runs rsyncd so that the NUC/Roon Server simply pulls (using ‘rsync’) - no “mounts” involved.

Believe you are suggesting to ‘mount’ a share from the Nucleus to the NAS (TrueNAS ‘Core’). As that isn’t a directly supported use case, would need to spin up a jail (“VM”) and then in the jail install/configure the mechanism for mount (if SMB - NFS is directly supported in jails) and then re-craft rsync for pushing to the share. Possible - yes, just extra work/maintenance for something that should otherwise be simpler and without the maintenance.

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