Firstly, try adding in bass player, drummer, mix engineer, mastering engineer etc, and see what shows for you then. Secondly, no Roon will not be editing your files, it will be editing it’s own database.
[quote=“Steve_Lees, post:41, topic:8289, full:true”]
Firstly, try adding in bass player, drummer, mix engineer, mastering engineer etc, and see what shows for you then.[/quote]
As I said previously, not interested. Too much work. [Moderated]
Ah, so that follows the first paradigm I posted above. Roon will retain and not relinquish any metadata that is user supplied/edited within Roon. Hey, I have no problem with Roon’s business model and gated ecosystem that does not allow metadata to be exported outside of the core database. However, plenty of people vocally dislike that aspect of Roon. And those, like yourself, who may go to great labor to customize their own metadata inside of Roon then may [Moderated] be unable to take their work with them outside of Roon. The complaints will be many.
AJ
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No my desires as you call it are not non standard, anyone who has music from Australia for example will find the metadata automatically provided in Roon very lacking in any real content for most of the albums imported.
Given that the metadata is the main reason for using Roon in the first place, having hundreds of albums in my collection lacking any real content is not acceptable.
As such I am happy to enter the data I want in there, and no I will not throw a hissy fit if I move away from Roon and lose my metadata, as I have no intention of leaving Roon, I have a lifetime license.
[Moderated]
He’s right you know.
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Who is?
/10 char
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Steve Lees
In what way?
[Moderated] I point out some of the pitfalls that could arise for users and/or Roon. Like it or not, those potential problems are relevant.
Honestly, the entitlement attitude among many Roon subscribers is heavy and is why I have questions about the long term viability of the company. A lifetime subscription seems to equal a one time payment followed by a lifetime of demands placed upon the developers.
AJ
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Well, Happy Thanksgiving Everyone.
First, every user on the forums is entitled to their opinion/compliment/criticism/feature wish and to expressing it. The devs openly ask people for their opinion and feedback. The devs read the “demands” and decide for themselves whether or not to implement them. If you search the forums, there are several times where the devs have detailed how they listen to, evaluate and then act on forum users’ suggestions. There are some things which they have heard suggestions/complaints about from day 1 but I don’t see them changing, i.e. the pawmasher vs double click to play. I don’t think you give the devs enough credit to think for themselves.
Second, imho as with the other user above, you have completely missed Steve’s original point. Roon currently does store Drummer, Guitarist, Producer, fields etc for each album. Check the Credits Tab sometime. However, that information is both not directly editable, nor, as Steve was hoping, available to elect to use his already provided information. Steve wanted the ability to tell Roon, “use my Guitarist Tag, instead of Roon’s Guitarist Tag information”, like you can do now with Album Title or Artist.
The ability to do both is presumed to be arriving with the next large update1.3, also known as the meta-data update. Steve is excited for it to arrive as that will allow Roon to be used to utilized for music which does not exist in the existing music data repositories Roon utilizes.
The Credit information is one of the things which makes Roon, well, Roon. It is the ability to look and see Roy Brittan played keyboards on Peter Gabriel’s 2nd album. And then click on him in the credits to find out that he was also in Bruce Springsteen’s Band. Once 1.3 drops, it will allow Steve and others to add this information so that their collection of perhaps local or personal music can provide the same in Roon.
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Daniel Beyer, thank you for responding to AJD’s rather rude comments. Entitled? Really? Number one, this is a discussion forum Andrew as Daniel said, Secondly Roon is a Metadata driven application, it stands or falls on the metadata because THAT is what separates it from everything else on offer.
As I said before, if you have no interest in having thorough and complete metadata, what are you using Roon for? [Moderated]
[Moderated] I’m pointing out some caveats and negatives regarding extended metadata editing functions. Is this only a pro extended metadata discussion? Are there not multiple sides to look at? It is okay to post, “Hey, Roon, you should add/change XYZ.” But it is not okay to post, “Hold on. Maybe that should not be implemented because it could create these potential problems.” If so, that is a double standard, as both are offering perspectives that can assist the developers. Advising what Roon should not do is just as fair and reasonable as proposing what Roon should do. And it is not denying the developers enough credit to think for themselves. Otherwise, you could say the same about any user proposed features. “No, just let the developers think for themselves.”
AJ
Not sure I agree that Roon’s only USP is meta. Single system linking to Meridian, squeeze, airplay and now a ton of RAAT devices is not a minor feature. Full integration with Tidal is pretty significant IMHO.
Fair call on all counts, however when Roon started is was pretty limited in terms of ‘working with other devices’ etc, but point taken. For ME it was the metadata, the linking between artists, musicians, engineers etc.
Meta is a huge thing… don’t get me wrong. I love it. The linking and browsing through it all is quite awesome.
You cannot have the cake and eat it. Roon metadata works most of the time because there are stringent rules on what is used and what is not. Once you open that decision to the public you open metadata to entropy and - ultimately - chaos.
I am using jriver to edit and maintain metadata in my library. They too allow “;” as a delimiter in some fields for a reason: It is rarely used in any other context, quite contrary to “,” where someone before already mentioned “lastname, firstname” as an example. Using a tagging tool of your choice it is a really simple and automated process to change “,” to “;”. No need for python or sql to to that.
It would not be clever to open pandoras box of user changes to metadata definitions, because complains about inconsistency of data would arise quickly from a number of users that (for valid reasons) do not know anything about metadata and make such a change anyway. Nobody would be able to support such a structure.
Also, in my understanding roon is bulit so you do not habve to care about metadata anyway in 99 percenent of all cases. Which means it might be a little bit off with the rest but constantly improving.
I have a very large number of local files with manual edited and maintained tags, and I spend some time when adding new music. But when it comes to listening and browsing I feel much more comfortable with the data roon offers.
In addition personal experience will not allways match that of a wider population, which might explain why VOCALS are maintained while BASS and DRUMS are not, if statistical data over a wide range of tracks suggests to do so. Not nice if you see things differently, but tht’s the way things are. I would suggest to live with the shortcomings and watch roon get better day by day.
Having said that, I would suggest that development provides some kind of metadata documentation, so everybody is aware of what works and what doesn’t.
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At root, my point was simply that many many Roon users have worked very hard to perfect the metadata they use, beyond the standard that any commercial provider could realistically hope to reach in the imaginable future.
It seems obvious to me that Roon needs to have the OPTIONS to prefer the user’s metadata selectively from a much wider range of fields than now, and in a much more convenient way.
The current principles applied by Roon work, but their extension needs to be an intrinsic part of the feature set, and much easier to use. You get carpal tunnel syndrome doing some edits, as things stand.
I am no doubt missing some tricks that are available but I think that the fundamental point still stands.
Front page of Roon Labs web site says:
Music lovers have content from many sources, often acquired over years of collecting. Roon identifies your music, then enhances it with the latest metadata.
So yes, Metadata IS in fact a selling point of Roon, and Roon is absolutely without peer in presenting ones music collection, from both a metadata perspective, and of course the interface design.
I am sure it is not a simple process to allow Roon to access MY metadata (and use it in place of any online lookup built into Roon) which I have added to my files with what ever editor I choose, but clearly I am not alone in wanting this feature, otherwise I am quite sure, it would not be on the list for a future version. I for one, am very appreciative of the fact it will be with us soon.
I agree that metadata isn’t where it should be. It would be great to see player entries by instrument enabling us to browse other albums/works; that’s part of the promise of Roon. And yes I think Steve is right to expect that filling out standardised FLAC file tags would inform Roon metadata. We haven’t got details yet of what’s in store with 1.3 but I hope that might be amongst it. There’s a lot of banging and crashing coming from the devs’ shed at the bottom of the garden.
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Interesting to see Steve’s frustration go through evolution:wink:
[Moderated] I am sorry, I could not help myself:joy:
A. No, of course not - but see para. C.
B. Yes of course there is, all discussion is welcome, imho. If you go to the Feature Requests section you will see that their is voiced opposition to some proposed Features. I have voice opposition, as well, on occasion. When I do so, I direct my comments to the devs.
C. However, imho, there was not really an active discussion in this thread. The active discussion happened months ago in February, between really Steve and Brian. Brian detailed Roon’s philosophy on meta-data and explained that the next big update will address some of Steve’s concerns. It had been left at that time as, and I’m paraphrasing, “Wait and See what changes we’ve made in 1.3 in regards to meta-data and then fire up the discussion again”. Any detailed discussion really should wait until 1.3 drops, so everyone can see what is brings to the table and then get back to discussing. The only recent discussion was “Hey any timetable on 1.3, its been months” and “Yep it is coming soon”.
We’ve had some concerns expressed about this thread, so I have moderated some of the posts to remove comments about other users. Try to keep discussion focussed on the ideas rather than each other.
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