Martin-
First, disagreeing with what you wrote - even vehemently - isn’t making a disagreement “personal”. I wrote nothing about you as a person. I commented on your opinions.
Of course, you just changed the discussion. Do I think much of what audiophiles think they hear is imagined? Yes. Does that mean all differences are and that all equipment sounds the same? No.
Is there evidence supporting ABX testing? Yes. Is there evidence saying ABX testing is not always the best testing method? Yes. Perceptual testing is VERY complex. I’ve done some reading on test setup Setting up a properly done test is actually very difficult, which is one of the reasons it isn’t often done. Even academics with experience can fail at test design.
Just because you think you’ve double blind tested something, it doesn’t mean the test is scientifically valid. If you talk to people who actually are experts in testing, what audiophiles commonly refer to as DBT and ABX testing is NOT considered the “gold standard” for all perceptual tests. Claiming otherwise is actually unscientific - it’s what “armchair engineers” say, and not what scientists who actually work in the relevant fields say.
As far as specific equipment - human perception often doesn’t match engineering. People like certain types and amounts of distortion. Humans also don’t actually prefer “flat” response - most people perceive truly flat response as “bright”. Olive and Toole showed that an objectively measured response of 20 Hz and straight line to -10 dB at 20 kHz is subjectively perceived by most of us as a neutral or flat response - that’s what our ears/brain hear. There’s also evidence most of us prefer a slightly warm midrange. “Hearing” actually takes place in the brain. It’s not your ears.
All of that said, I’m the first to say that audiophiles tend to attribute dramatic changes to very small differences in results. And I’d agree that we sometimes fool ourselves into hearing things. But again, that doesn’t meant that all DACs and amps sound the same - even if the differences aren’t large. And even some of those “small” differences can become more meaningful to the listener if they are heard with long term exposure.
Ultimately a Dac’s contribution to the sound in a Hi-Fi system, regardless of how expensive it is, is dependent upon all the other system components in the chain. And I mean ALL, including cables, equipment supports etc. This is a crucial aspect of the whole Hi-fi experience. All perceived acoustic differences are deeply contextual. To talk about the rights or wrongs of this or that particular piece of equipment outside of a specific context maybe fun for us to engage with as enthusiasts but does not address the fact that the reproduction of recorded music is always a simulacrum of the recorded music. This is made even more complex when dealing with music that has only ever existed in the mixing desk and was never a simultaneous coming together of musicians in a venue, or particular recording studio.
Recently, after auditioning a number of respected, branded amps in my setup at home I decided to buy an LFD amp. These amps are solid state, hand-built in small numbers in the UK by an old-school Hi-fi eccentric who doesn’t even think it’s necessary to include a remote volume control! It’s not purism for the sake of it but a decision to spend money where it matters, i.e. to produce the best sound possible at a price that doesn’t break the bank. I’ve found that since I introduced this eccentric component I can hear - through my Harbeth 30.1 monitors - a difference that any piece of equipment I introduce makes - including Dacs. The differences are sometimes subtle and not always night and day but they are discernible to me only because I know what my system sounded like before I introduced them. Sometimes they sound better to my ears but other times they don’t.
In my 40 years listening to music through Hi-fi I’ve tried many different types of equipment set-up and have been satisfied with most of them up to a point, depending on how poor I was. The pursuit of audio perfection is illusory because ultimately, as we all know, it depends on the limitations of our finances. Instead what I focus upon now is fine tuning my home listening setup, in a way that I can afford, to extract the best possible sound - to my ears - from my equipment. This means keeping up to date with all new developments in technology and seeing if by introducing them into my setup they improve my listening experience. This is what I find most rewarding and satisfying about the Hi-fi hobby and also why I decided to use Roon player in my computer based system because I find it sounds better than anything else that I’ve tried in the digital realm out there at the moment. But that might change in the future…
Bill_Janssen
(Wigwam wool socks now on asymmetrical isolation feet!)
86
Fascinating discussion here. I’m learning a lot.
Now I think that if you believe Amir on ASR (and I do), you can get accurate reproduction of CD-quality digital audio with a Topping D30 for $120. I am also pretty sure that for an additional $120 you can get a reasonable no-name class-D amp to drive speakers (though which one to use is pretty unclear, and amp interactions with the speakers also play into this) with minimal distortion.
So if you’re spending more than $250 on the DAC/amp chain, I’m thinking you’re probably buying something more than accurate reproduction. After all, accurate isn’t always great. As Alex points out, sometimes the source is
But even when the source is an accurate recording of live music, that doesn’t mean it necessarily sounds as good as it can. Hearing is done with the brain, not the ears, and many factors influence what actually gets heard. The entire modern Hi-Fi world seems to be built on purposeful introduction of improvements in the form of distortions from “accurate”, to please a listener’s hearing. And these “distortions” are not all in the sonic domain; marketing and visuals are part of it. And what’s worse, which ones work best is both personal and subjective.
Is this really different from different singers’ interpretations of a given song? Aren’t they machine-driven interpretations of the same source bits?
But wait, there’s more: different kinds of music probably benefit from different kinds of machine-based “interpretation”. So to optimize, you may need multiple playback stacks, one for each different kind of music you like to listen to.
If you listen on high end head phones or speakers then a high end DAC can make a small difference.
If the speakers or headphones are not of the highest quality then all bets are off.
Surprisingly the errors I hear on R2R DAC equipment like the Metrum Pavane are the very reason other folks choose that equipment. That said, I never found 1 bit DS DACs or SACD convincing - so far. The latest round of DS DACs with 6 bits are however sounding very good to my ears.
Ear training is essential. There are some courses and books to help. Distortion can sound better and most listeners subjectively prefer an “etched” sound where jitter and other distortion products are modulated with the music. (It the same with TV - for untrained folks the bigger bolder punchier and exaggerated bigger than life always wins over the most natural presentation of all)
I can hear what Scott refers to easily - the difference between $250 and $2000 equipment is usually obvious. Sometimes the $2000 equipment is much worse than the $250 gear. That said - it is still a small difference and $250 gear may easily sound subjectively better to some listeners just as compression from hot masters can create the kind of punch on pop rock that many fund subjectively better. The difference between $2000 and $10,000 is extremely small and often the highest price equipment don’t necessarily measure well (this probably explains why a difference is audible). Diminishing returns definitely applies.
A lot of the reported night and day differences are most likely setup issues. How many audiophiles here are careful to manage headroom and ensure the highest signal level (without clipping) through the entire line level chain? How many use XLR at pro audio level? How many are content with just digital volume control and content to run their DAC engine at below idle speed where channel linearity and SNR are terrible?
What I am saying is that if you have a correct setup with reasonably good gear that measures well then of course differences should be very small with SS electronics.
The difference between $150 good headphones and great headphones $1500+ is enormous. The difference between $1500 good speakers and great $15,000+ speakers is enormous. A massive difference in this area. Therefore it makes sense to spend the greatest amount by far on the headphones or speakers.
Agreed. You absolutely don’t need a high end setup to enjoy music. I can enjoy & appreciate music on an old radio in a garden shed. It isn’t necessary to spend any money at all to enjoy music. I love music first. Those well heeled Dr and Lawyers with less than 50 albums and a 100,000 Wilson McIntosh system are not really into the music. They are more into the “wow” or “shock and awe” that an impressive system can deliver. It is the same with cars. Some folks drive a top end Porsche, Audi or BMW but they rarely if ever burn rubber or spend spare time at the race track. The equipment is their pride and joy. While others can tear around in a Subaru WTI or Golf R - little pride of ownership but one-hulleva-lot of fun if you like to race…
That was my intention. Otherwise, this would have resulted in a very polarised debate with only shaking heads and rolling eyes in common.
I also appreciate your well articulated reply. At last we move past the typical audiophetish riposte.
I agree. Indeed I think this demonstrates individual biases (genetically programmed?) but doesn’t explain those “dramatic changes to very small differences”.
Again, I agree. But different manufacturers and different design choices colour the sound. I still remain skeptical that, for example, infinitesimal timing errors can be meaningful to the listener. Expectation bias has a large part to play.
1 Like
Bill_Janssen
(Wigwam wool socks now on asymmetrical isolation feet!)
94
Dude, everything you say here makes sense to me. But one nagging uncertainty: do most people have any real need to hear music objectively, to develop “critical listening skills”? Is ear training really “essential” if you’re not in the audio business somehow?
That’s for each one to answer for himself. What is sad (at least in my experience) is that the people who don’t give a ■■■■ about sound quality are unable to accept that something else exists.
Yes, it is if you have a real passion for it. Ear training is essential if you feel the need to go beyond the simple joy of listening and to discover a deeper level of the listening experience. Without that training chances are that you’ll miss the possible subtleties of a recording. And here is where some good equipment can help a lot, is just a matter of trying.
Believe it or not there are people who can make a difference between a Stradivarius violin and a regular one and wanting a sound as close as possible from the real thing is something which is worth pursuing for them. The same is for others who appreciate to a greater extent the sound quality also and not only the emotional or nostalgic or whatever side of it.
These days a simple visit to the audio dealer can demonstrate the undeniable differences between systems (or DACs to keep it on topic), yet there are a lot o people out there who are convinced that the earth is flat. Arguing with them seems most of the times hopeless…
Go to well presented live gigs often. That will get your ears sorted to what to listen for. Poorly done live music is awful though and all too common.
Perhaps Ive told this before but coming out of a Gretchen Peters gig in a main venue that will remain nameless, this lady came rushing up to me and said “You’ve spoiled Music for me” I was puzzled untill she said Music is never as good and exciting as it is at The Little a Rabbit Barn. She is a regular. Now I cannot take the credit for that except through association as we have sound engineers for the gigs, and good ones too. But the point was taken and it was a great compliment.
People appreciate great sound and often they don’t own a stick of Hi Fi…
No need for ear training to enjoy music or your favorite audio system however if you have an interest in moving up the ladder to high end equipment it will help. There ar many pitfalls in audio. The first being the obvious smile EQ on most speakers - these aren’t accurate at all but simply designed to stand out and impress in a store floor demo.
Just like a driver training course and working on a skid pan will help you understand the basics of race car driving and allow you to better judge a great car to drive from merely one with a powerful engine…
That said you can simply choose what other experts like to use. Some manufacturers publish a client list so you get an idea of which experts like the sound.
or go back to basics and spin some black round things…those too are also sometimes horribly recorded and or mastered so its never going to be perfect no matter what we do.
DAC is no different than any other component in a HiFi system. It’s all about balance, if you sit with cheap computer speakers it does not make much sense to add a high-end DAC, and on the flip side if you sit with $10000 speakers and amplifier it makes little sense to use a bad DAC.
Personally I have upgraded from no DAC (sound directly from computer) to a DragonFly Red, and that made a big improvement. Then I upgraded from DragonFly Red to Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital and that also made a big improvement.
I find ASR measurements interesting, and if I were in the market for a budget DAC I would definetly purchase the better measuring DAC.
The limitations of measurements are obviously that they are only meaningful in comparison to a benchmark. Whether we have today a good benchmark for digital to analog conversion can be debated. All conversion can be viewed as flawed, in some way, and there is simply no way of knowing what a “perfect” reproduction sounds like. You can spend 10.000 $ on a DAC and the result may not be significantly better than on 1000 $ DAC. The internal workings of a DAC are highly complex as the signal has many ways of being distorted by electrical interferences from the source, the power supply, or components within the DAC.
Most DAC manufacturers know this, even though they do not publicize it.
) and audiophilia they are very different things.
