How do you tell snake oil from “truth” in audio gear?

I always thought the definition of snake oil was not up to each individual but rather a universal one. Snake Oil Definition

Whether or not one chooses to admit that they have been taken in by a snake oil salesman is what is up to them. But believing that snake oil is something other than snake oil does not mean that it’s not snake oil.

I’m still waiting for the term “quantum mechanics” to make an appearance in this thread.

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The world has changed a lot since 1972. Today, definitions are up for interpretation by anyone on the internet and all its alternative “facts”. :slight_smile:

For example (I don’t know if you’ve read through the thread in its entirety) there are claims that we don’t have to use our ears to listen to our systems, just looking at measurements is enough to tell what’s good and what’s bad. That’s one juicy bit of snake oil right there because manufacturers never play would never play with numbers to sell more gear. Never.

Curious to know which point on the example I shared with my cable pricing/performance is the snake oil definition line drawn? The definition isn’t in question, it’s the people making claims they pull out of their woofer that’s questionable and it’s a double edged sword. Thus it’s best we draw our own lines based on our own experiences and our own wallets and leave the broad or anecdotal generalizations out of it.

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Tough question and difficult to answer without stepping on someone’s toes. My better nature is telling me to just walk away but that little devil is saying to give a go.

And so…

I doubt that you did a blind test, let alone a double blind test, to determine if the perceived sonic differences were real and I take no issue with that since true double blind testing of audio cables, even USB cables, is not easy to do. Add in the fact that you seem quite aware that claims of sonic difference in USB cables is considered by many to be not supported by known science and I would say if you like the sound and think it’s worth the money then fine. I use low priced “audiophile” USB cables, about $25 per 1/2 meter, in my systems because i like the build quality of the cable and not because I think that the cables sound any better than less expensive USB cables.

Okay now onto the difficult part. What I don’t understand is why people post pronouncements that go completely against known science and then get upset when others respond with claims of “snake oil”. However, you, at least, seem to understand this point.

Lastly, earlier today I took a long walk listening to a nice Qobuz jazz playlist on my Focal Bathys headphones connected to my iPhone via a lightning to USB C OTG cable and using the USB DAC mode of the Bathys. And it sounded absolutely fantastic. Better than Bluetooth? I don’t know and I don’t care because the sound was on par with a nice desktop headphone setup, something that I would never say about a Bluetooth headphone.

So yes, there is some truth mixed in amongst all the audiophile noise. Let’s work together to find it.

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Hmmm, John, “good” and “bad” are of course subjective terms. Hard to see how measurements could tell you about those. Also, I’ve suffered through this entire thread, and don’t recall anyone saying that. At least, not good and bad; measurements can distinguish between “accurate” and “distorted”.

Then you switch to this! Manufacturers by and large don’t provide measurements! Only specs! Which, as you point out, may or may not be accurate. That’s why measurements are so important! Don’t really see the connection between this sentence and the one immediately preceding it?

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PM me and I can sell you a cable for $100,000 :wink:

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Free shipment?
And while everyone seems to be in the mood - I got a bridge to sell. Quantum material. Recommended drive-in time app 3 months. May be returned at full refund within two months.

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I’ve always been skeptical, and still am, of “experts” proclaiming how much of your overall budget each component should consume, as if everything scales in proportion whether it’s $500 or $500,000. There are things like loudspeakers where spending more money can make a difference, diminished as the returns may be. There are other things, like cables, that at some price point just don’t get any better. Those who claim to hear that they do are welcome to spend gobs of money on them, but I’m not among them.

Back around 1973 I made a major system upgrade: A pair of Epicure 100 speakers and a Kenwood integrated amp, to plug into my AR turntable. I don’t remember what the pundits were saying about the budget balance back then, but it was probably about right. The speaker cable was a spool of probably 22 gauge transparent stuff, probably from Radio Shack (anything bigger would have been difficult to fit under the screw terminals of the Kenwood, or into the push terminals of the EPI’s). The AR had phono leads hard wired into it. Back then, the cable budget was essentially zero. Cables didn’t become a thing until later. Even Holt and Pearson weren’t talking about them.

I am amazed nobody yet has marketed superconducting cables, surrounded by a jacket to circulate coolant.

Indeed, Leporello. I used the 10% example, which was the rage in the 80s to indicate how things escalated beyond that in current times. As you point out, there is a law of diminishing returns. 10% of a ultra high end system is a crazy budget for cables. You have been around longer than me. :blush: In the end it comes down to common sense.

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Liquid nitrogen is a hassle. Quantum tunneling though works at room temperature, is directional and can’t really be measured. You just trust your ears.

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The issue of sound quality debates depends mainly on personal criteria and on international manufacturing which favours “average sound quality”. This “average sound quality” corresponds to what people like to hear at home, not too loud but pleasant, on equipment that is not too bulky, at prices that are not too high, with an acceptable WAF.
But males are what they are.
They only have the ability to discuss watches, cars and hifi. And that’s about it. So, in these three privileged areas, they try to live up to the hype, even if it means saying huge stupid things about these three subjects. This allows them to play their role as dominant males to women, to neighbours, and to their immeasurably distorted egos.
Since I am a professional sound engineer, I can tell you that most of the debates I read here have no legitimate interest in terms of sound quality. Some debates just make me laugh. With all due respect.

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@KDM - Could you give some examples?

THX

Torben

Watches?

You forgot single-malt scotches. And golf courses.

I’m shocked soccer is not on the list.

Well, sports in general.

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We also love to debate pet photos. Could be called almost experts. Cats rule dogs are second. Audio is more of a side interest.

Do router and ethernet cables affect sound quality? (2356 people)

i suggest : Do an iPhone have a better sound than a Samsung ?

Excel addiction is now curable - you uninstall it and use an abacus :rofl: :smiling_imp:

Once you buy into believing the argument about “snake oil”, whether you’re right or you’re wrong, you might as well give up on hi-fi. Your journey has basically come to end. I for one believe that yes, there is snake oil (i really get sick of using that term btw), and I also believe that not everything expensive is snake oil. This is a hobby that tends to attract a lot of overanalytical, type A, OCD, whatever you wanna label them, type people. It simultaneously tends to attract people with a lot of disposable income. And for-profit companies just cannot ignore the opportunity for profit from someone that believes there is only one “right” way to do something and also have lots of $$ to find it.

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While it is an exaggeration it is so illustrative. Thanks for reminding me about it as I need to be in constant check.