Mac mini (2018, i7, 32GB), macOS 13.0.1 Roon 2.0 (1148)
Networking Gear & Setup Details
ISP 1GB connection, modem Zyxel T54, Ethernet, no VPN.
Connected Audio Devices
Raspberry Pi 2B, HifiBerry Digi+ Pro optical connected to Chord Qutest DAC
Raspberry Pi 4B, USB to Chord Qutest DAC
Also tried Roon Core without any end points USB direct into the DAC.
Number of Tracks in Library
Just a try sample set of less then 15,000 tracks
Description of Issue
I just started my trial period a few days ago and I am rather disappointed with the Roon sound quality compared to PiCorePlayer. I compared sevaral albums on Qobuz. The wide sound stage is gone and it sounds more frontal without the stereo seperation I had before with PiCorePlayer. The sound is also more harsh.
Switching back to the PiCorePlayer is such a big difference anyone notes immediately.
Does Roon always use a form of sound proccessing? Even when no DSP is selected. Can you disable all sound processing?
Roon does not have the option of the HifiBerry Digi+ Pro so I had to select HifiBerry Digi+.
I have tried several Raspberry Pi end point setups and also connect my DAC direct to the Roon Core for getting the Exclusive mode without much difference. The Signal path always shows the purple dot without any DSP sound processing enabled.
Any tips are very welcome because I am rather stuck right now.
I had so high hopes of Roon but don’t want to take such a step back in sound quality. Hopefully it is just a setting I have missed.
The sound of PiCorePlayer is very different, so I am wondering if there is a form of sound processing always on. The sound stage using the PiCorePlayer without Roon is wide and open with lots of dynamics, like I am used to with my tube amplifier. With Roon the sound stage and stereo separtion is very narrow, more up front and sounds too tight up.
First thing I thought it was just a problem with the Raspbery Pi endpoint or the software. Connecting my Chord DAC directly to the core did not give any improvement. So it must be the Roon Core software or a specific setting.
I love all possibilities Roon offers but this lack of sound quality on my system is a real bummer. Any suggestions are highly appreciated.
One possible option is to make your endpoint Squeezebox compatible. Put Roon into the SB compatible mode and see how that works for you. It does impose some limitations but might help regain some of what you feel you have lost. And ignore those who tell you that you can’t be hearing what you hear. There’s a lot of that going around this community at the moment.
What distro are you running Roon Bridge on not that it should make a difference but worth noting. I used to use PiCore player many moons ago and noticed no difference switching to Roon at all, I used aPiCore player using Roons SB abilities whilst I awaited a dedicated Roon player on the pi. When that arrived I switched and again didn’t notice any difference. I struggle to understand how it could cause what your describing but to each their own.
I also struggle to understand how the audio could be so different. But I’m a bit confused. piCorePlayer is not an endpoint or player by itself. It’s an OS. On this OS one can install LMS to be a server. And one can install (turn on) squeezelite to emulate a squeezebox player. Are you saying that you run LMS on the rPi and also use the rPi as a squeezelite instance?
Have you used a DB meter just to check that the test volumes levels are in the same ball park?
Plus if I’m being honest I sometimes think LMS and Tidal Connect sound more musical than Roon.
Thnx for suggestions. I have tried the End point installations using several distro’s; Raspberry OS, Moode, Volumia, HifiBerry OS and PiCorePlayer without LMS incl. Roon Squeezebox support. Without much difference at all.
Then I tried Roon Core on my Mac mini USB connected to the Chord Qutest DAC. Also no improvement. So I guess there is proof of sound processing always going on in the Roon Core. Which in my case has a negative impact on sound quality.
When I use just plain PiCorePlayer without Roon the soundstage is always wide and open. Very entertainable with lots of dynamics and all those little sounds, creaks and puffs all over the place which makes good Hifi so much enjoyable. Musicology of Prince is a great album for testing. The source for testing is Qobuz using some the same records.
It is hard to explain in words exactly. Everybody at home recognizes the source instantly.
@garym Thnx, that’s the exact term. Roon sounds less musical. The Roon sound stage at my place is too tight, always close by a speaker and the sound is flatter. Like a loudness setting is still on. After a while it gives me even some listening fatigue.
When you listened Roon for a long time you are used to the sound it I recon. If there is fix I find PiCorePlayer much more enjoyable in sound quality. In features Roon wins for sure.
There is no additional processing going on as it’s bitperfect and my DAC tells me it is. If Roon was processing anything it would not pass but perfect test.
When you run lms to picore player is it via the same path? Mac to pi ?
I run LMS, Squeezelite and PiCorePlayer on the same Raspberry Pi.
As far as I can tell Roon is built on the same architectural concept as PiCorePlayer/ LMS:
Roon Core = Logitech Media Server (LMS)
Roon End point = Squeezelite / Squeezebox
Roon Remote = PiCorePlayer (webserver) or apps like iPeng
Switching end points, using the Roon Core only or using Roon’s Squeezebox support did not provide any sound improvements. Roon’s Squeezebox functionality works by emulating LMS.
LMS is very light so I won’t expect any sound processing capabilities. It must be Roon Core.
Logic tells me this is a Roon Core vs. LMS sound quality comparison.
Maybe because I am using a tube amplifier it emphasizes the sound differences between these two media servers?
may have already been mentioned, but are you sure there are no volume differences in the two playback methods. Do you have SmartGain, etc. turned on in LMS settings? And/Or do you have volume leveling turned on in Roon Core? Even slight differences in volume can make the louder version sound “better”.
Well I just switched on my LMS on my nuc. Played same local track and rhen a track from Qobuz to my Ropieee end point running Squeezelite and same track from Roon to Roon Bridge on same Pi. I am struggling to hear any discernable difference and defintely no sound stage collapse as described. Squeezelite does sound slightly louder for local but oddly quieter for Qobuz, so had to drop it match as close as I can. This is all using my dac and Headamp. Obviously differences here are I am not running LMS on same device as the player nor am I using PiCore player, but Ropiees is also a lightweight distro purely for audio playback. My Roon core is also a different PC running ROCK. Seems strange that the OP gets such a big difference, it hints at something else in the chain somewhere.
… from which I would infer the overall end-to-end system gain is different, so understanding where it’s different is key to understanding why - and may be key to understanding what’s going on in the OP’s system.
(Edit - written without a full understanding of the system architecture here, so quite possibly missing the point entirely… )
… which sounds like it should be bit-perfect; but if there’s (enough of) a difference that you can manually correct with a level change, something odd is going on!
I don’t know enough about LMS to even hazard a guess.
Is there anything useful the RME can tell you about what it’s receiving?
Yes to both. Which means they are the same volume but they do sound different levels for some reason, likely my brain doing something but as I said no real discernible difference and definitely no change in soundstage.
