Lossless… Apple Music, Amazon, Spotify (soon)… Roon?

SKBubba · June 19, 2021, 11:33pm

Crossposted…

Been using Roon for almost three years. Started with Tidal but switched to Qobuz a while back when Tidal went all MQA. Roon+Qobuz is a killer combo. In fact, you need Roon because the Qobuz apps are barely adequate.

I dabbled with Amazon Music HD when it launched, but the apps don’t play well together. Can’t control the PC app with the tablet/phone app. And you can’t really play “lossless” to any device.

Tried Apple when they launched “lossless.” The only playback device the Android app supports is Chromecast, and it didn’t work. The only PC desktop app is iTunes, and the last time I played around with it it was a hot mess. No thanks.

I had tried Spotify a few times in the past. Nice, but no “lossless” so no thanks. But last week, in anticipation of their upcoming “hi-fi” launch, I started playing around with it again.

Hmm, this isn’t bad. Even without lossless. Not sure I’ll even hear any difference when they launch “lossless.”

Their “radio” feature is 10x better than Roon. Spotify’s discovery features are a little more cumbersome, but ok. And they don’t have Roon’s embedded metadata, so instead of deep diving with a few clicks in Roon you end up browsing Wikipedia, Allmusic, etc. with Spotify.

Spotify’s other “for you” mixes and curated playlists, etc. are 10x better than Roon, because Roon doesn’t really have them. You can get close using Roon focus and bookmarks, but it’s a lot of work, v Spotify “just press play.”

One killer feature of Spotify is Spotify Connect. When I run Spotify on mobile or desktop, I can click “available devices” to play to, and get a list of eight different devices around the house, including the PC desktop app and my Denon AVR, plus “everywhere”, with no complicated setup/configuration as required with Roon RAAT, which is mostly supported on higher-end devices above my pay grade.

And another killer Spotify use case. The other day, I was listening on the home stereo via Connect to the PC app from my tablet, got in the car and the phone app connected to the car Bluetooth and picked right up where the tablet/pc apps left off. When we got to the lake I turned on our portable Bluetooth speaker and the phone connected and picked right up where it left off in the car. It all worked in reverse when returning home.

Try that with Roon. Or Tidal, which admittedly has the second best PC/mobile apps. Except no control of PC desktop app from mobile/handheld apps. And also, MQA.

Anyway, long story short (I know, too late), I haven’t used Roon+Qobuz for a week or so, and listening to music seems more fun and less like a chore. I still have a few months left on my Roon+Qobuz subscriptions, but I gotta say that Spotify has me wondering about renewing them. Not to mention ~$35/mo for Roon+Qobuz v $10/mo for Spotify. Waiting to see what happens with Spotify’s Hi-Fi rollout. I’m guessing it will be much better than Amazon/Apple rollout in terms of device support. And even if they raise the price it will still be cheaper than Roon+Qobuz.

We’ll see…

Andy_Storm · June 20, 2021, 8:34am

Fully agree with your assessment. I am currently using Spotify and would only consider switching to Apple Music if Apple offered something like Spotify Connect. I am currently using a Raspberry Pi (running Volumio) with an Allo DigiOne Signature as transport that is connected to a DAC (RME ADI-2).
In my opinion, lossless streaming only makes sense if a streamer or DAC is part of a hifi system and if that streamer or dedicated software can be controlled with smartphone or tablet. I would also consider an Apple TV if it had a digital output, but that is obviously not the case with the latest Apple TV 4K. If Apple is serious about bringing lossless streaming to a wide audience, then it would offer something like Spotify Connect to hardware manufacturers. However, if Apple would limit lossless streaming to Apple devices (e.g. MacBook or MacMini connected to a DAC), then I would gladly stay with Spotify and wait for their Hifi service.

Marco_Klobas · June 20, 2021, 11:56am

Keep in mind that Apple TV (both HD and 4K) has a fixed output set at 48 kHz.

An HDMI to TOSLINK de-embedder can provide an optical output.

Andy_Storm · June 20, 2021, 12:43pm

Thanks for the info, Marco.
This limitation makes the Apple TV unattractive, especially at this price.
„Apple Music Connect“ in a streamer like the Bluesound Node 2i would be nice, but I don’t think that Apple will go down that path and license such technology to other companies. Apple is obviously more interested in attracting Spotify and Tidal users even if the Apple implementation of Lossless is ‚incomplete‘ IMHO. I certainly do not need lossless audio for listening to music over smartphone or tablet speakers.

davidh · June 22, 2021, 6:22pm

Yeah i agree that Spotify is the best app though I have to say that Apple’s app has had huge improvements since it first came out . I hated the Apple app when it first came out. If Apple comes out with a Apple Connect feature , it will be very close with the nod to Spotify for music discovery.

I find airplay to be dreadful from long distances.

davidh · June 26, 2021, 1:33pm

From a family that has all Apple devices , I suspect that Spotify is going to win the lossless battle . Spotify Connect at hi res with the entire library at lossless or better would be quite the accomplishment considering Amazon and Apple’s lossless offerings are not really lossless music streaming in many instances .
Considering many people have permanently shifted to working from their homes , I would have hoped for a better Apple solution than Airplay which is inconsistent from long distances . The other day I played Apple via Airplay to a Naim amp 8 feet away , brought up my outside cameras on my phone twice and the music stuttered. Mind you I have the latest iPhone 12 Pro and gigabit internet. Not impressed .

Neil_Russell · June 26, 2021, 2:20pm

I have Qobuz, but I only use it for exploration and discovery. Once in a while, it’s used when Roon switches into Roon Radio mode. Of my almost 21000 albums in my library, only two are Qobuz. All the rest are local.

davidh · June 26, 2021, 2:35pm

I agree . I just wish you could occasionally skip songs on Roon Radio Paradise like you can on mobile apps.

Atanarjuat99 · June 26, 2021, 6:59pm

Yes, exactly re: Spotify music discovery. Spotify finds what i actually want to listen to. Tidal is okay but Roon Radio is tone deaf. Which means that I need to subscribe to Spotify, Tidal and Roon - which does add up.

Shlomo_Drechsler · July 5, 2021, 1:00pm

apple has to come up with a real lossless solution not airplay .

carsten_ibsen · July 17, 2021, 10:46am

I think Roon will exist also without Tidal & Qobuz, I personally have 50-80.000 local Lossless files in Roon, and it is outstanding playing and finding metadata for those, it is so much better than the alternatives(Audirvana Studio or JRMC)which I also have, so I know, & I will continue to support Roon,Tidal & Qobuz even when other alternatives presents it self.

Rhys_Jones · July 21, 2021, 8:11pm

Roon’s unique selling points are:

Great user interface and experience and…
No hardware lock-in - use every type of streamer hardware you want and
Every audio source; your local collection, multiple streaming services

Anything Roon does that dilutes 2 and 3 is detrimental to the USP

The closer or narrower the alignment to a particular hardware set or service set means less value for us, the subscribers. Competing with the hardware or services will lead to a slow death or acquisition of Roon and it’s eventual closure - as a company, and as we all should, it’s a good idea to be a student of and learn from history (remember Sooloos?)

carsten_ibsen · July 30, 2021, 12:31am

IMHO Tidal & Qobuz is the best streaming services on this earth, but I am excited to see how Apple Music will do with its new Lossless/Dolby Atmos approach.

davidh · September 8, 2021, 9:13pm

Ive been using Apple for a couple of months and my only complaint is not everything is lossless yet and they need a Spotify Connect solution for home play.

It is very very good. Im really impressed overall and it stunk when it first came out

Robert_Mustarde · September 8, 2021, 10:14pm

I am going to comment from the head, not from the heart. Unless Roon supports one of the big streaming services, its room for growth (and thus existence) is doomed. I read a comment in this thread about it serving a niche market. Sorry - but I do not expect the people who work on this will be happy in the long run accepting this as satisfying a niche market. That might work for the individual “niche” consumer, it does not work for the platform provider, in this case Roon. Development will slow down sooner or later as developers move on to more rewarding projects. The problem with Roon “merging” with one of the large streaming providers is that the product will then become singularly focused on that one provider (maybe not even lossless content). That’s probably better than nothing but no guarantee it will provide what the “niche” consumer wants. One option is that Roon develops its own lossless streaming service and becomes vertically integrated instead of relying on third party streaming platforms to work with them. Just a thought

dabassgoesboomboom · September 8, 2021, 11:46pm

If you buy 1 million Roon lifetime plans today plus subscribe to an additional 1 million Roon annual plans today, I imagine Roon will have their own streaming service ready in a jiffy for you.

Robert_Mustarde · September 9, 2021, 12:17am

I did not say it would be easy, fast, affordable (for Roon) or in any way viable - but sometimes the hard way is the only way

dabassgoesboomboom · September 9, 2021, 12:56am

This was discussed years ago with Danny somewhere. It is obviously something that interests them.

What I was trying to hint at is it is 100% viable when they have enough annual subscribers.

Roon have done the calculations and they have the magic number of subscribers where it makes sense. Whether it is 500k, 1 million, 2 million , only they know.

At <200k we’re (obviously) not there yet.

Robert_Mustarde · September 9, 2021, 1:33am

I completely understand. However, this is based on their platform being profitable and sustainable on day one. I come from the world of IT start-ups where you sometimes have to commit to losing money to make money. You need to have the cash to start with (which means you need investors who are on board) and then be prepared to operate at a loss to build your base. I have no idea what Roon’s background is, what sort of cash they have raised etc. etc…however at a purely business level, as things stand, I think they are doomed. However - if they went to the VC world and said “look, we have an $xM business currently but we can turn it into a $50xM business by having our own streaming platform” - then you might find someone who is prepared to stump up $20M or more to give it a shot. Of course the founders would have to be prepared to give up a bunch of equity…but that’s the game…owning 99% of nothing is still nothing.

dabassgoesboomboom · September 9, 2021, 1:40am

This is why I plucked a number out of my bottom and said, go buy 1 million lifetime plans today. It will help fast track things But as I also said you will still need to commit to another 1 million annual plans.

Anyway this is a long way off.

Hopefully Deezer comes to Roon. Apparently someone over there at Deezer is keen on Roon.

Let’s see where Qobuz is 2 years from today. I hope they are healthy but who knows with the big boys (Apple and Amazon and soon Spotify and probably Google/Alphabet/YouTube) stepping into lossless.