Form factor is the issue now. CDs are still the best route to the finest audio quality during playback IMO since I starting to listen to hi-res, but are obsolete as they are just too large to store. Hi-res FLAC files are still compressed and sound inferior to factory 16 bit audio IMO. I would prefer full, unmolested factory.WAV files on some sort of flash memory product.
Nothing to do with FLAC itself, but rather with remastering for streaming that squeezes the dynamic range to match popular listening conditions (earbuds, loud). More common with popular music than with classical or modern jazz. I have many recent hi-res FLACs of contemporary small-label jazz and speciality classical (such as BIS) that are extremely good.
Even worse, some of those “remasterings” are just dynamic range adjustment and upsampling, which can be easily seen with a spectrum plot. FLAC is blameless, labels and streaming services are the source of the problem.
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Interesting take. I think there have been more than one study proving the original WAV file can be reconstructed without defects from a FLAC file. So how can that sound inferior if it’s exactly the same?
I guess the most outstanding characteristic that come to my mind that makes .WAV sound better to me is overall less noise. I am able to single out any instrument in audio recordings pretty much on autopilot. I seek out cymbals first. It doesn’t matter the genre, artist, volume level, etc. I am always able to hear clearer cymbals in .WAV recordings. And the recordings that sound bad as a .WAV file I can never listen to as hi-res. The cymbals in almost all older recordings released in hi-res sound like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. Not to mention, when it comes to using an EQ, I get more response from a .WAV file than any hi-res file I ever played.
BTW, these are my own perceptions. I have never measured anything, I set everything by ear.
The compression is lossless. If you rip a WAV file from CD, convert it to FLAC, then convert it back to WAV, the resulting file is bit for bit the same as the original WAV. There is absolutely no difference and you cannot distinguish the two WAV files.
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A study is not needed, it takes 2 minutes to prove this without any doubt.
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Really, another one of these threads?
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I’ve ripped my audio CD’s with dBpoweramp to uncompressed FLAC. They have the same bitrate and filesize compared to WAV’s. And they sound the same as the CD’s where they originated from.
As far as I’m concerned, the network technology these days has finally made it possible for me to do a fair side by side comparison between FLAC and WAV. WAV always has a more robust soundstage to my ears and guts. So now that I am able to stream WAV files without issue, I only stream the compressed files of music that I don’t actually own a physical copy of.
That’s fine if you believe that but it has nothing to do with the file format or FLAC’s encoding as such. Buy the FLAC, decode it, and store the resulting WAV on flash memory if you prefer.
If you find a difference in the bits before and after encoding/decoding, ensure that you apply for a Nobel price in mathematics or physics.
If you could buy WAV files, they would probably be stored as FLAC on the server anyway, and you would be none the wiser.
It’s a proven fact that everyone doesn’t hear the same things. Case in point. I was in the automotive industry and worked in factory car dealerships all my life as a parts analyst. At least a couple of times a year, we’d always have issues trying to diagnose wheel hub bearing failures because ascwe found out not everyone hears frequencys the same and have to have more than one technician test drive the vehicle to confirm the customers concern. One day I got into one of our loaner cars with the boss to go somewhere and as we’re going down the road the right rear hub bearing was so loud it sounded like someone was cutting a brake rotor on a lathe. When I mentioned that it sounded like that vehicle needed a repair, my boss was like “You can actually hear something? This vehicle is a buyback because the customer complained about it and nobody could verify it.” Sure enough that bearing went to QA and was condemned.
Now I’m not saying my hearing is better than anyone else’s, but just pointing out that there’s more to music than bits and measurements.
The point others we attempting to make is that digital data is recovered without any error as long as distortion and noise are within specific boundaries. In contrast, with analogue signals, noise or interference in the waveform will cause an error in the received signal.
This has absolutely zero to do with lossless encoding/decoding of digital data
I’m talking about the end result here. What we actually hear. You’re telling me I don’t hear something. right? That I shouldnt hear a difference between FLAC and WAV, but I actually do. If your entire music playback listening experience is based solely on the belief that it’s just bits and measurements than your gimpin yourself IMO. Just sayin…
What even is the point of compressed audio files now if we can stream WAV?
No, I am sure you hear what you want.
What I am saying all along is that this …
… has nothing to do with it.
In Roon, it’s the Core that converts both FLAC files and WAV files to PCM samples and that’s what the endpoint is fed. And the PCM samples are 100% the same whether the source was a WAV or a FLAC, everything else being equal.
And because the Core does it, the computation load on the endpoint is also the same.
Half the file size on the server, which matters if you have to store 100 million tracks, and standardized file tags. As the decoded bits are 100% the same, there is no downside
Something has to be stripped from the file to make it smaller. And what is being stripped out is obviously what is not audibly discernable by most people from what I get from it, as not everyone hears a difference. I agree that if I create a playlist of various file formats and volume level to the point of convenience, then I cannot hear quite the same differential. But straight up no DSP, no volume nonsense and it is definitely noticeable ro me. Anything that takes the life out of the instruments has no place in the audio industry.
There appears to be a misunderstanding here. FLAC and WAV are both lossless sound formats, and there is no distinction in sound performance or quality. Both contain the same audio data, i.e., nothing is taken away when using FLAC; it is identical to the source.
Incidentally, CDs do not use WAV; they use uncompressed pulse-code modulation (PCM), which is what your Roon core sends to a DAC irrespective of the file audio format.
You may wish to read this Wikipedia entry.
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Nothing there addresses the fact of the difference in audio quality though. And please don’t post another load of text that I have no intention of reading. This is all information I had forgotten long ago already.
Everyone always says put it to the listen test yourself and trust your ears. That’s what I have been doing ever since I looked up the term kernel streaming 20 years ago trying to get better audio from a PC. And after all that listening, I can say that FLAC sounds better than mp3, but not WAV.
I’m closing the thread since nothing new can be said.
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