NAS (Asustor AS5402T) 24x7 constantly accessing hard drives

Roon Software Discussion QNAP/Synology NAS
1

As I have already read here, this permanent access to the Roon Server software was sold as a feature. So that everything is always up to date when querying data. I wanted to ask after a few years. whether there is a solution.

I used an Intel NUC ROCK as the Roon Server for 8 years. The data was on a NAS and there was no permanent access to the NAS.

A powerful new NAS has been working for 6 months. And there are these constant accesses every 4 - 5 seconds, which creates a really unpleasant background noise.

Why isn’t there a switch that can optionally turn this feature off?

So far the only solution I have is to disable the server app and turn it on when needed. Not a very good solution.

Another would be SSD, but I have two HDDs with 16 TB each. There is no SSD alternative.

Do Roon developers really care about this problem?

3

This is by design so I guess Roon doesn’t consider it a problem.

Are you not able to locate the NAS in place were the noise during hard disk access (and the fans?) are not troublesome?

4

Short answer: No, another location for the NAS is not possible. And the fact that Roon doesn’t at least give him the option of defined rest periods is frighteningly bad. But the sale to Harman will probably eliminate the lifetime license in the near future.

5

roon´s internal database should be located on any type of SSD. If roon is installed on a spinning-disc-only NAS, it is using storage on the HDD to do permanent database operation which is not touching the music data, solely the cache-like database. This is not recommended as it is slowing down roon and eventually ruining the HDD because of permanent head-repositioning.

The only solution is installing any kind of fast SSD drive - may it be into an additional bay, via eSATA or USB3 - and telling roon to utilize it for internal database. Fortunately with Asustor OS there is the easy way to just open roon app on the AMD desktop and pointing to the path of the new database on the fast SSD.

I have done that with my silent QNAP and it works flawlessly with the NAS full of HDD being located just 1.5m from the listening position. A 64GB USB stick would to the job as long as it is fast (Sandisc Extreme works for me).

Off-topic PS: Do not be pessimistic regarding roon being acquired by Harman. I am pretty sure they would do everything to satisfy existing customers and loyal fans. Just from experience with other companies being acquired by Harman…

6

Roon recommends very strongly to have the Roon database on an SSD. Running Roon on a machine that is not in line with the official requirements may or may not work and is at the user’s risk

7

In my NAS, two 16TB HDDs work as Raid 1. The pure audio files are there. Roon’s database is on an additional 500GB SSD. And the HDD is still accessed. Conclusion: The proposed SSD solution has already been implemented and is not a solution to the problem!

8

Well, then your OP was incomplete, how would we know

9

So now it seems that Roon is on an SSD and, according to @Robert_Ostermeyer’s initial post, disabling Roon causes the behavior to stop.

That suggests that it’s something happening with his library, which implies that either a) something other than Roon is doing something that generates a change notification that Roon is responding to or b) Roon is scanning for changes or doing something else on its own.

It’s possible to “Disable” a Storage location in Settings Storage through the drop down menu for the specific storage location. Would you folks advise that he try doing this to help confirm that it’s actually the storage location causing the issue? I don’t understand what consequences this might have to metadata, playlists, etc. and I don’t want to recommend it without knowing if it may have undesirable consequences.

When I look at my primary library storage in Settings, I see “Watching for new files in real time”. Does this text change depending on whether or not Roon can watch versus needs to scan? I’m wondering if the value displayed in @Robert_Ostermeyer’s case may provide some insight.

Another option, and I know this is not without its caveats, is to install dual SSDs in a read/write cache configuration. I know Asustor supports this. I do this on Synology where you can set up read/write caching and can also check a box to pin Btrfs metadata into the cache. I don’t know if Asustor supports Btrfs pinning. If I were trying to keep a NAS quiet, I would potentially try this along with allowing the drives to sleep. I don’t think this is the first thing to try, though.

10

Two SSDs are also installed as cache for the two HDDs in Raid 1. No change.
I’ve now deleted all monitored locations for audio files, so there’s nothing to check - and still constant access. Only deactivating the Roon Server app on the NAS ends the effect mentioned. Unfortunately, Mr. Rieke doesn’t answer. And the Roon developers apparently don’t care about NAS apps.

11

Sorry, I was not aware of that given the information in the initial post.

In this case indeed it might have to do with roon monitoring the music storage and trying to identify changes. Could you specify the noise being generated please? Is it close to just 1 click every 4 or 5 seconds, like a single head repositioning procedure? I have the feeling that my configuration being pretty similar to yours is showing a similar behavior - I am just not noticing the single clicks as my machine is a silent NAS with HDD being screwed to some kind of metal frame and I have been chosing particularly silent drives for it.

Idea #1: Maybe your NAS offers a storage deep-sleep-mode being automatically applied to all HDD after a period of inactivity to be defined. I have activated this mode in QTS and set it to 10min for the reason of keeping HDD temperature low while not using roon. It works after some time even when roon application is still running. It is also sending the drives to completely silent mode. Only disadvantage: they need some seconds to spin up when I am resuming to use the NAS or opening roon remote.

Another would be SSD, but I have two HDDs with 16 TB each. There is no SSD alternative.

Idea #2: You are mentioning 2 HDD 16TB each plus 2 bays for cache SSD. Am I right in my assumption that you have 2 main bays for 3.5" and 4 slots M.2? Would it be an option to install 2 SSD units 8TB each in the main bays plus 4 units 4TB each in the M.2 slots? That also makes 32 TB combined or 16TB in RAID1.

12

Noisy NAS ? Maybe a product like this could help: The Soundcoat Company, world leader in sound insulation and noise control

13

Thank you for the answers. The 6 SSD solution made me smile a bit. That would be an additional cost of €2000! And then I have two HDDs with 16TB without use.
The NAS also worked more quietly after purchasing and setting it up. The persistent access with clicks every 4-5 seconds occurred around the same time with the new version of Christopher Rieke’s NAS app. Unfortunately I can’t narrow it down exactly. The new NAS version should fix errors with php8, but apparently it is not without errors. When installing you still need php 7.3. Mr. Rieke seems to have little interest in his hobby project. It reacts little or not at all to error messages.
My personal guess is that the database on the NAS (stored on an SSD!) is corrupt. I’m going to delete these and restart Roon from scratch, even if that means reanalyzing all the music files. The result will only become apparent after a few days.

14

Yes, 32TB of SSD comes at a price but currently you could have it around 1500 Euros all together and maybe you can expand it bar by bar.

The NAS also worked more quietly after purchasing and setting it up.

Did you check if the 16TB HDDs are properly installed in their frames with all screws, dampers and alike in their place, as well as the damper feet of the enclosure are correctly positioned and effectively isolating? My experience with several plasticky NAS enclosures plus big HDD is that resonances and vibration of the shelve/desk can cause the head tracking noise to become pretty annoying (with Zyxel NAS being the worst). Is there a difference between the NAS being placed on a shelf, the floor or held in hand? If the latter is the case, I would recommend to get nice dampers for the NAS such as these:

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Attempts to dampen the NAS enclosure itself have not been successful. Modern 2-bay-models are pretty packed inside, plastic walls are thin and airflow management is an issue so there is not much chance to dampen anything without causing problems resulting in a more active and louder fan.

It is also depending on the model of HDD and its capacity as the head noise makes pretty much of a difference. I found 16/18/20TB models to be louder in general, especially SG IronWolf Pro and WD Pro/Gold.

After trying several combinations, my best practice turned out to be 12 or 14TB WD Red Plus in a QNAP Silent NAS with both HDD being screwed into their rigid aluminium frames (these in combination with the rigid enclosure help a lot to counter head tracking noise). Installed the aforementioned damper feet (which also help a lot) and the whole thing is almost as silent as a fanless SSD-only server being placed less than 1m away from the sofa.

There is still one click-like head positioning sound every 4-5 seconds but it is not audible while sitting on the sofa. After 5 minutes of not playing music the HDD are sent to deep-sleep by the QNAP´s energy management and all sounds stop even if you place your ear on the NAS like an Indian scout in a movie.

1 Like
15

I don’t think you should make any significant changes until you understand the root cause.

I had a Roon database go corrupt. When that happened, there was activity in the logs indicating that corrupt blocks were found. I don’t see how database corruption is the cause here but I suppose you can’t rule it out.

What you can, and definitely should do, is look at Roon’s logs. You might find something in there to help you understand what’s happening. That’s what I’d do next. Here’s a link with instructions:

The other thing to consider, even just for testing purposes, is to try Roon in a Docker container on your NAS. A number of us do this and it works well. This also might help since it would allow you to specifically control where your Roon “App” and “Data” folders live. Maybe it’s something like your log files living on your spinning drives and Roon writing constantly to them (for reasons we don’t understand yet). In any case, Docker should be an option.

Here’s the git page on how to install the container that most of us use.

16

That was an issue indeed with earlier Roon-on-nas versions as they were seemingly accepting an external path for the database but not applying it fully so the database was still on the main boot HDD.

It should be easy to figure that out: clear the cache of the roon remote app, open roon and start scrolling album coverflow extensively. In this case roon accessing the internal database makes the spinning discs go crazy and you will hear lots of head tracking noise. If everything stays silent or normal, you can be sure the database runs from an SSD.

From what I understand, the reported disc sounds are very likely to be the usual one-click per 4 or 5 seconds, but sonically amplified and annoying in this particular case.

17

This is making me wonder if we have any idea what’s actually going on.

To the best of my recollection, I have never owned a hard drive that, when healthy, makes a clicking sound every 4 or 5 seconds. Many drives make sounds when they come out of sleep, and they also often make a sound when the actuator resets. Actuator reset is not a normal operation every few seconds. Maybe I’m just not remembering. My storage servers and NAS devices have been kept out of earshot for 25+ years. And the fans are always louder than the drives. I’ve had drives in PCs and Macs on which I can hear the r/w activity, but I wouldn’t describe that as a consistent, periodic click. Who knows, though.

There could be something like a bad sector on one of the drives. Or maybe there’s a heat issue.

In any case, I still advise looking at the Roon logs. I also advise looking at the Asustor Settings > Storage Manager > Drive info to explore if there are any SMART errors reported.

Info on that here: Drive | Online Help | ASUSTOR NAS

18

I mean the usual sound of a drive´s head repositioning, the single sound of every read/write activity. Nothing unhealthy, happens all the time you are starting to access a file on that drive or start streaming a local file, but usually you hear many of these sounds. Since I was running roon on several NAS, I always noticed that there is such ´click´ every 4-5 seconds which I prescribed to roon´s routine of constantly monitoring the files. Maybe it is a matter of how many files one has so the complete directory can only be monitored by the head changing the track from time to time.

As mentioned I have taken a number of measures to keep that inaudible (and I understand not everyone wants a silent NAS). But having owned several NAS I find the drive´s behavior in general pretty normal. There are just some models amplifying the Read/Write sounds.

And the fans are always louder than the drives.

That is very much depending on the NAS´ enclosure and how the drives are installed/isolated. There are a lot of examples of NAS offering pretty silent fans but amplifying the heads´ read/write noises in a really annoying way. Listen to a pair of fat Seagate IronWolf Pro in a cheap Synology NAS and you know what I mean.

19

Modern drives have ram-based caches and file system metadata is quite cacheable. On top of that, file system metadata, even though it’s usually stored in efficient b-trees, won’t typically be sequentially readable in a manner that would cause seeks to only happen every 4 or 5 seconds. But your real-world experience trumps my theoretical guesswork, so you may be right :slight_smile:

You’re also probably right about the potential here for acoustic amplification of drive noises when the fans are quiet but other factors are in play. My storage servers, NAS included, have been large, many drive, noisy things. I used to build them myself in custom enclosures, then moved to things like SuperMicro chassis with SCSI backplanes. External rheostats for fan control. Sounded like jet planes.

I think you’ve made some good recommendations for quieting a NAS - I’m very noise sensitive and have employed the strategies you mention for workstations and PCs. Acoustic foam, grommets on all physical/screw connection points, custom feet. Even rigging up hammocks to suspend noise drives on elastic cords.

All that said, though, I’d still start by making sure the root cause is understood through looking at logs, making sure he understands what drives everything sits on and how the SSD cache is deployed (e.g., a “read-only” cache isn’t going to help if the issue is log writes). And I would check the SMART reports since we don’t know if he’s done.

But this may have turned into a fun conversation between you and me, so let’s see if he comes back :slight_smile:

20

HDD access has improved somewhat, but remains at an access every 4-5 seconds. I really don’t understand why Roon Server has to do this. It is simply stupid not to allow rest periods or to simply ignore or override the NAS rest periods. The solution for me so far was to deactivate the Roon app on the NAS (attention, do not uninstall it!). As a lifetime user, I’m now really frustrated with Roon after many years.
And the server log file is full of this nonsense:

12/11 15:51:03 Trace: [broker/accounts] [heartbeat] now=12/11/2023 14:51:03 nextauthrefresh=12/11/2023 15:11:04 nextmachineallocate=12/11/2023 16:01:03
12/11 15:51:05 Info: [stats] 5497mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 314mb Managed, 315 Handles, 65 Threads
12/11 15:51:20 Info: [stats] 5513mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 314mb Managed, 315 Handles, 67 Threads
12/11 15:51:35 Info: [stats] 5489mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 315mb Managed, 315 Handles, 60 Threads
12/11 15:51:50 Info: [stats] 5481mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 315mb Managed, 315 Handles, 62 Threads
12/11 15:52:05 Info: [stats] 5497mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 314mb Managed, 315 Handles, 65 Threads
12/11 15:52:20 Info: [stats] 5505mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 316mb Managed, 315 Handles, 66 Threads
12/11 15:52:35 Info: [stats] 5505mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 314mb Managed, 315 Handles, 62 Threads
12/11 15:52:50 Info: [stats] 5481mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 316mb Managed, 315 Handles, 62 Threads
12/11 15:53:05 Info: [stats] 5529mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 315mb Managed, 315 Handles, 67 Threads
12/11 15:53:20 Info: [stats] 5529mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 315mb Managed, 315 Handles, 68 Threads
12/11 15:53:35 Info: [stats] 5497mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 316mb Managed, 315 Handles, 61 Threads
12/11 15:53:50 Info: [stats] 5489mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 314mb Managed, 315 Handles, 64 Threads
12/11 15:54:05 Info: [stats] 5505mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 315mb Managed, 315 Handles, 66 Threads
12/11 15:54:20 Info: [stats] 5513mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 315mb Managed, 315 Handles, 67 Threads
12/11 15:54:35 Info: [stats] 5497mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 315mb Managed, 315 Handles, 61 Threads
12/11 15:54:50 Info: [stats] 5497mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 316mb Managed, 315 Handles, 63 Threads
12/11 15:55:05 Info: [stats] 5497mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 316mb Managed, 315 Handles, 65 Threads
12/11 15:55:20 Info: [stats] 5505mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 315mb Managed, 315 Handles, 66 Threads
12/11 15:55:35 Info: [stats] 5505mb Virtual, 902mb Physical, 314mb Managed, 315 Handles, 62 Threads

21

That’s not nonsense in your logs but it might be your issue if Roon’s logs are stored on your spinning drives.

I still don’t know if these log writes are related to your issue because I still don’t know if the logs are on a spinning disk or on an SSD. What we can see, though, is that every 15 second, Roon is writing a log line describing its current resource usage. I see the same thing in my own logs. One theory is that these files are on your spinning drive(s) and that the writes are, one way or another, causing the noise you hear.

If this was me, I’d work on figuring out conclusively if that’s what’s happening and I’d then try to get the log files onto an SSD. There may be no way for you to do this with the Roon package you’re using which, I believe, gets installed on your system partition and that’s where the log files go. An alternative would be to run Roon in a Docker container which would allow you to put your log files wherever you want, but that’s a much more complicated approach.

Again, I’m just speculating that it’s the logs that are causing disk access and that disk access is causing noise. To me, at least, this is very normal behavior for a server application. Which means that, for me, the solution would be one of: relocate the NAS; get the log files on an SSD by running in a Docker container; modify the NAS to make it quieter as @Arindal has proposed; run the Roon service on a different device.

If you want to pursue this with Roon, I think it’s a good time to create a support post.