Questions Re: Replacing a HTPC Core & Internal Storage with a NUC Core & NAS Storage

Roon Software Discussion
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My Initial Dilemma as Expressed in this Post:
Best Practice(s) for using a NAS (QNAP TS451+) to Install a Secondary Roon Core?

From the Input Received from that Post:
Now that there are hardware problems with my NAS (both RAM & SSD add-ons needed & a potential DOA pronouncement)", turning to a NUC as a primary 24/7 Roon Server, seems a prudent choice.

I’ve been researching a NAS to replace my QNAP. And then use the new NAS as file storage for the new NUC.

If this makes sense; the next questions are do I:
1) Run Rock on the NUC,
OR
2) Load Windows and run a Roon Core (as I’m now doing on the HTPC)?

In this case, without direct knowledge, Rock would seem the most prudent choice. What say you?

Following the answer to that, which NUC should I buy? I see that Intel is handing over the NUC business to ASUS:

“On July 18, 2023, Intel and ASUS announced that they had agreed on a term sheet for a non-exclusive license for ASUS to manufacture, sell, and support 10th to 13th Gen NUC systems. ASUS will be responsible for NUC sales distribution for 10th to 13th Gen NUC systems.” “For 13th Gen NUC and future generations, ASUS will select and create new ASUS NUC SKUs.”

I’m not sure how that move effects my NUC decision, or even if it does?

I presume Rock NUC’s have been robust and may perhaps even sound better on a highly resolved system (as is my 2-channel room with OTL Tube Amps, EMM Labs DAC & Electrostatic speakers). I know some have moved from Windows Home and Pro, to the Windows Server because of supposed sonic improvements. That should be even more true because Rock is Linux based. Does Rock have sonic improvements, or other advantages over a Roon Core running on a Windows PC (NUC)?

Being one not to prefer flying blind, with Rock being Linux based and with me being Linux illiterate, not having any ability to monitor Rock and the NUC is concerning. But in practice, should that be a concern?

My Roon Requirements:
Lastly, I don’t do DSP and don’t as of yet do Tidal or Qobuz, and am about 90% sure I won’t use them. I do have approx. 240,000 tracks. With those requirements what NUC model/version – CPU, RAM etc., – should I be seeking?

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This is all things that are best determined by your demands, but by the looks of it you’ll do fine with a RoonOS install (ROCK).
Don’t worry about the Linux innards of the ROCK concept, you will rarely ever be made aware, and it’s a set and forget experience.
In my personal experience, i can’t hear significant differences between different NUC’s. I do prefer my MOCK’s that are often built on bigger motherboards and are not subject to the tight “living space” and constrained CPU TDP requirements, They even tend to sound more relaxed, but that is only ever relevant should you desire to connect a DAC directly to the Server.
With your library size, i’d consider a “newer” hardware, what ever that means. If NUC, gen 8 and newer and i7 based with 16Gb DDR4 (in dual channel). If MOCk, i really like the Intel Core i3 13100 with it’s low core count, and relatively high processing speed.

Why would you consider Windows or Linux then? Well, i also run a Minim2 UPnP server on my core server (headless, fanless) with Win11. I also use it for library maintenance and running backup scripts and as a share for other consumers. If i were only in to Roon, i’d run RoonOS and perform manintenance over the network shares.

Good luck with your construct!

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Thanks for the advice.

Viewing the Rock approved NUC’s I’ve found a:

NUC 11 NUC11PAHi7 Panther Canyon Barebone Kit:
(4-Core, 2.8 GHz – 4.7 GHz Turbo, 8 Thread, 12MB Cache).
Using Intel’s compatibility tool to I’ve spec’ed: 2-Crucial 8gb RAM modules and a Kennsingston 500gb SSD.

That seems like a NUC & hardware combo that will suit my needs, doesn’t it?

After viewing Roon’s Rock information, it seems that a Rock-NUC running files from a NAS can sometimes be problematic. As such, forgetting the NAS and using an USB Ext.HD may be a better and more practical way for me to proceed. Yes/No?

I’m planning on leaving the NUC running 24/7 &/or turn-it-on & off consistent with our sleep patterns.

When a Rock NUC is NOT being accessed by a remote (e.g., cell, PC etc.), will the Rock-NUC goto sleep & allow the USB HD to sleep? And if yes, will a remote wake the NUC and then the NAS?

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The question is: Why would you want to have NAS and Roon Core separated? If you anyways plan to buy a new NAS plus a NUC for roon core, it would sound more logical to me to buy a powerful NAS which can handle both storage of your collection, backup/redundancy capabilities plus run roon on its own CPU. As your library is pretty huge, a powerful one is recommend such as in a semi-pro NAS by QNAP:

QNAPTVS-472XT
QNAPTVS-472XT1231×800 68.5 KB

This model called TVS-472XT-i5 is running a pretty powerful Core i5 Gen8 with fewer cores, can handle the QTS OS which is perfect for roon and you have everything in one enclosure. I would not take more current professional NAS systems into consideration as they are mostly equipped with multiple-core CPU optimized for virtualization/multitasking of many clients but not for running one demanding application like roon.

Separating NAS and Roon Core would definitely work as well, but I have no experience with scanning, accessing and analyzing such a huge library via network. You should better consult someone who is familiar with such a setup before.

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That particular NUC is on the “Supported” list of NUC’s which might ease your concerns regarding support from Roon etc.
I think it’ll do just fine, but have no personal experience of this generation of NUCs.

There are pro’s and con’s to media placement which ever solution you choose, but my take away is that media on an SMB share works very well. If you are an impatient soul it might be worth mentioning that reindexing of a network share is not in realtime, but defined by a schedual.

A single or RAID USB disk array could be attached directly to the NUC also, like you suggest. Personally, i tend to believe that a NAS has better cooling/longevity of the drives than most USB devices.
The ROCK device will not “sleep”, but neither will it keep USB drives spinning constantly, they will settle (like NAS drives obviously) into idle after a few minutes of inactivity.

Should you choose to go MOCK (or Win/Linux/Mac) this of course opens up opportunities of bigger libraries with internal storage, which is my personal choice.
I am not disturbed by the sound of a 5.400rpm drive in my listening space within the headless/fanless server i mentioned.

I personally think that NAS based Roon Core is a more compromised solution, where you are forced into an operating system full of services and solutions to whatever issues you are not experiencing. And they are pretty expensive and noisy. (I do have a lengthy experience of running Roon core on a QNAP TS-470Pro but history has taught us that this is not a support priority from Roon team, even if my older machine never had the issues with lost storage paths)

Edit:
Oh, and i’d like to add that file analysis when adding to your library is incredibly efficient when media is located on an SMB share. It seems this activity fits a lot better than when media is located internally or on an external USB drive.
I recently set up a couple of Roon Cores wih only a part of, or none at all, the local library internally, and the rest requested from a network share. The file indexijg and analysis seems to be faster over the network than with local drives…

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It that a fact? I have different experience with external USB drives but maybe that originated from the 2.5" pocket drives I was using which seem not to have an idle mode but keep spinning and causing vibrations constantly. NAS drives you can really send to deep-sleep as an OS routine.

I am not disturbed by the sound of a 5.400rpm drive in my listening space within the headless/fanless server i mentioned.

As far as I know 5,400 rpm drives are rare in the 10TB+ range, and many drives declared as 5,400 models are actually 7,200 slowed down. It very much depends on the particular model, the enclosure, the number and how they are positioned. External 2.5" with a few TB tend to cause significant vibration on the shelf while professional internal 3.5" NASdrives spin more smoothly but might cause annoying head tracking noise.

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I would like to claim that the first part is a fact, but i better check that out properly! :blush:
It is my impression at the moment anyways, with an external 6Tb HDD (3.5" externally powered).

Regarding the spinning internal drives, yes, you’re correct… There are a few if’s and but’s when it comes to drive choice.
I am running a 10Tb WD Red 5.400rpm of the dreaded EFAX-type. They are very silent and smooth, and a bit lower in power consumption than the revised EFRX versions.
I have had some issues in the past when switching to bigger drives, and some of the 8Tb WD Reds were very noisy, and caused vibrations.

One can always go SSD, and i am considering going Windows for my big Roon Server and arrange a JBOD in software, consisting of more than one big SSD. Perhaps you can set up a RAID in BIOS Setup as a JBOD also? (I don’t want RAID0 due to better robustness of a JBOD) That would allow a MOCK/ROCK to make use of a bigger SSD than 8Tb

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Yes, confirmed right now!
I took one of my ROCK NUC’s, with some 135Ktracks on an external 3.5" USB drive (WD Red 6Tb in a generic enclosure) and 120K tracks on an SMB share on the network. I made sure library duties were finished, then restarted the device. Went and had some dinner and after 20-30minutes the external drive was at idle.
Spinning up when requesting music from it takes some 5 seconds or so, but that doesn’t bother me.

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When you say “generic enclosure”, have you any product recommendations that would work with a 20tb.HD? Also, I have 2-3 older docks for Ext.HD’s. But I’m sure they wouldn’t address anything as large as the 20tb’s I need. Perhaps newer ones would however, so if available, I wonder if one of those plus an internal HD, would be usable.

I’m seeking the best choice here, rather than guessing. That is, what good robust heat dissipation, performance and speed, have Rock-NUC users had, from external storage in the 20tb range?

After weighing all the advice and applying it to my needs and wants, I’m moving towards using a Rock-NUC. But the question is, what is the best solution to use for 20tb of storage?

I wouldn’t think that an off-the-shelf External like a: "Western Digital 20TB Elements Desktop External Hard Drive, USB 3.0 drive for plug-and-play storage (BWLG0200HBK-NESN), would be a good choice for a 24/7 system. However, if the WD Elements stops spinning when music isn’t playing, that makes more sense for its use.

For a 24/7 NAS-like heavy use, I would spec a more NAS-like solution like a Seagate IronWolf or the Red you mentioned.

I welcome all 20TB storage recommendations to use with a Rock-NUC.

Also, is anything greater than 16gb of RAM necessary or going to be addressed by the Rock-NUC – i.e., is 32gb overkill?

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Debian > CasaOS > docker… Easiest way to container

steefdebruijn/docker-roonserver

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Personally I have a 16gb RAM…32gb is overkill. Unless you’re multitasking on your Roon server. Use that money elsewhere is a better investment.

I’m running a MiniPC with an i7 10th gen/16gb/512gb SSD for library and NAS for library. And it’s plenty powerful to me. But what you’re doing is on the right track and good luck :slight_smile:

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It does, I have one attached to a ROCK system. (Not 20 TB but still same line).

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Good to know that the WD Elements line spins down. I would have assumed so. But with this endeavor, I’ve found it less than prudent to assume about much of anything, especially when it comes to this specific thread. Folks experienced with using specific configurations and hardware, provide the best insight. Thus, I appreciate you taking the time to confirm what you thought may be happening!

With a Rock-NUC, I think I’m heading in a favorable direction with my goal of 24/7 operation. Any improvements over a basic Elements HD may be unseen. But as we know, ones library size, DSP on (and its selections), LAN throughput, etc. make profound differences.

Along the way today, I ran into AudioStyle’s, Chris Connaker’s experiences with Roon on a Qnap: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/review-running-a-large-roon-library-on-a-qnap-tvs-872xt-r917/. It made for informative reading.

Heading in one direction and obtaining the hardware and then it not performing as expected, is a costly frustration that I’m obviously trying to forego. All respondents have been helpful in that regard! Cheers!!

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RE: My concerns regarding memory minimums and maximums:
I found some answers to my questions about adequate RAM for a large library in the following recent post and its replies.

It appears that 16gb should be sufficient. But a couple users are running 32gb and 64gb.

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/memory-requirements-for-large-libraries-plus-an-observation-on-restore/258808/17?u=mrmb

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/memory-requirements-for-large-libraries-plus-an-observation-on-restore/258808/21?u=mrmb

And then there is this input from the same tread linked-to above:

I am now running a database with about 300k tracks, of which 56k are local, the rest divided between Tidal and Qobuz, on a system with 16GB RAM and a Core i5 8600K processor. I can’t remember having seen RAM usage go above 10G; and when this occurs, user interaction with the system has been very slow long before, so a server restart is due.

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actually it’s also depend on what processor you have. I have an i7 so I don’t have the problem. Maybe if I have 500k of songs, but I’m nowhere near that…so by then I’ll have a better machine…or AI! haha

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How did you add the Roon app to CasaOS? I’m playing with the demo but can’t figure out how to add apps not found in the app store :frowning:

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It seems he is using a Docker container. Keep in mind, running RoonServer in a docker container is not supported.

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Copy and paste the yaml from docker hub into the compose section in casaos. (+) top right hand corner

As stated it isn’t officially supported but works for my usage…

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I like this option and definitely need more grunt for a library that’s outgrown its host, thanks for suggesting @Mikael_Ollars.

Please could you link to any good threads, and share any obstacles if you’ve experience with replatforming an existing ROCK/NUC server to a new MOCK build?

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Sure Jack, it was a very straightforward build and the recipe looked like this:
Streacom FC5 Evo/Alpha
Asus Prime B660M-K D4
Intel Core i3 13100
Corsair 2*8Gb DDR4 3200(?)
Samsung 980 Pro m.2 SSD 250Gb
Streacom ZeroFlex PSU

All in all nothing exclusive, but still an extremely potent server for Roon.
Some performance figures and power consumption are listed in the linked spreadsheet here:

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