In that case, Roon would not be bit perfect anymore, which would be easily verified. I doubt their testing is so bad as to let something like this slip through.
5 Likes
The only time I have noticed a change was when the made the changes to the DSP engine as I use DSP in some zones. It wasn’t night and day no veils were lifted but it was a slight change.
Sure. I don’t think it’s likely, but it’s possible.
Even if it was, how would that result in degraded quality and not clicks, pops or just garbage? What can one accidentally do to the bits to impact soundstage for example?
3 Likes
I’m not sure anyone is actually claiming that…
I suspect that in some circumstances processing in the digital domain might modulate something in the analogue domain that could conceivably affect the audio output.
If someone wants to run a system that is so sensitive to such anomalies that it causes obviously audible differences (not necessarily improvements - that’s subjective preference), that’s fine. I don’t think I’d enjoy it.
1 Like
Need some of your drugs!!! Urgent!!!
3 Likes
If anyone has ever done a database reset in roon and imported a large library and played music, you can easily hear with the extra processing roon is doing during the import, that it doesnt sound as good
Once the library stops updating it sounds better. In this case it is the extra processing on the cpu and core that seems to be the culprit
Based on this, its not hard to suggest that extra features in software updates which lead to changes in processing power could lead to degradation.
I have heard others here say the same thing I did. 1202 is worse than 1211 but 1182 is better than both 1202 and 1211. I assume we all have different systems so its obvious we are hearing something here. I wouldn’t be wasting my time posting this if i didnt hear it myself 
3 Likes
Hands down. The best SQ you will get with Roon build 1137, self compiled with a gnu compiler running on a ubuntu system, build on a new moon night (the last thing is very important to have no negative gravity influences on the bits in the compiled version).
7 Likes
Most of us have moved on from bit perfect as the end all be all of sound quality in the digital domain.
That statement is as factual as “bits are not bits”.
3 Likes
Depending on your definition of „us“
2 Likes
Back to being a minority then……
3 Likes
If the purpose of Roon’s RAAT protocol is to send the bits and bytes of your audio file without loss nor alteration to the receiving endpoint, bit-perfectness is really all that counts. If you believe that those bits have a mind of their own, and carry some kind of audiophile notion of goodness of sound, above and beyond bit-perfectness, and dependent upon the work a processor does, then you must plausibly propose a panpsychic Universe and conscious photons and electrons…
8 Likes
It’s probably the population of a certain echo chamber.
2 Likes
I have seen over the years many mentions of roon sound, after upgrades, and it Always comes down to the " bits are bits"argument
It makes sense now. The guys who truly believe “bits are bits” and if they believe nothing else matters in digital, are probably running gear that isn’t as good, right?
Maybe they are running lamp wire speaker cables and $150-$200 nuc PC’s for sources and cheap amps and thus maybe they dont have a resolving enough system to hear more subtle changes between roon releases, potentially?
On the other hand if these “bits are bits” guys HAVE in fact spent money on premium cables and digital sources and amps and truly believe bits are bits, then why bother buy better gear?
Whats the point?
Bits are bits after all. People are stupid spending money on better sources amps and God forbid cables right? scoff
A $200 nuc pc running roon and cheap lamp wire speaker cable and cheap amps should sound the same as more expense “snake oil gear” right!?
So what is it? Bits are bits with roon updates, but matters with other things like hardware ? Or are we in talking to guys with cheap systems that can’t resolve subtle changes?
I would guess here that most people spending good money buying roon HAVE alsospent good money on better gear and are not running cheap gear, but that would be me assuming.
It you are a “bits are bits” guy but have good gear, I would respectfully ask, why spend money on something better if bits are the only thing that matters?
Don’t get me wrong. I have updated roon in the past where I didn’t hear a difference and other did. Doesn’t mean they were wrong then or I was, nor does it mean I am wrong now.
I just wish people would consider the fact that on two different systems with different set ups, one may hear a difference while the other doesn’t with a roon update. Everyone’s system is unique.
The fact that others have shared my exact findings here is more evidence than a simple echo chamber here.
5 Likes
I think the “bits are bits” crowd don’t take this seriously because everyone who reports it, does not do actual testing.
They aren’t setting up two cores, one with the old build and one with the new build and blind a/b testing.
Listening is so ridiculously subjective that depending on what mood you are in can change what you hear. In order to actually understand if there is a real difference, you need an actual process (blind a/b) to determine what’s going on.
14 Likes
As long as you don’t understand how digital data works and what the difference to analog is, your confusion will remain
(I do hope that you have heard before that amps and speakers are not digital and chose to conveniently forget it for the sake of this poor argument)
6 Likes
Wait a sec… if someone says bits are bits, they are then saying that bits are all that matters? Never heard someone say that. I believe that bits-are-bits’ers say that the impact of equipment (perhaps but certainly not necessarily including cables, power cables, little weights, furry bits etc) is solely in the analog domain.
I personally have a quite nice 2-channel system (way under $50k, farther over $10k than I’d like to admit, much of the cost in speakers). The $3.5k DAC is fed by a raspberry pi 4 running ropieee and a $6 USB cable and is in turn imbibing bits through a $2.50 ethernet cable. I’ve tried commercial streamers and never thought I heard a difference. I do not equate $ with audio quality in the least, but since it serves as an explicit proxy for quality/caring, I’ll use it as such. My DAC has a great USB input, though at times I also use the AES/EBU input. And yes, I can hear a difference when I do.
Have a lovely night.
5 Likes
I sort of lost interest a bit when listening to Roon recently as well. The latest software release just seems more involving again. Who knows what is going on under the hood? But your post will certainly bring out the measurement police who seem to endlessly stalk these forums in search of battle. LOL!
4 Likes
This is not at all what people mean when they say “bits are bits”.
“Bits is bits” refers to the digital domain, not the analog domain. Digital music is encoded as a series of ones and zeros. Eventually, those ones and zeros make it to a point in the signal path in which they are converted into analog sound. Everyone, without exception, agrees that the quality of sound in the analog domain varies tremendously based on a variety of factors including loudspeakers, listening environment, the analog components in the sound chain. There’s no debate there at all.
One of Roon’s core functions is to act as a middle man. Roon gets bits from somewhere and passes them on. When Roon does this, without modification, it is participating in a “bit perfect” signal path.
Unless they screw it up, it won’t change build to build. It can’t.
Some of us know how this stuff works. When I say this, I mean we really know how this stuff works. We’ve worked in technology for many years and are domain experts in our fields. Bits pass as bits. That it’s. Claiming that one perfect bit passer makes something sound better or worse than another bit passer is equivalent to claiming that emails sent through Gmail sound better than emails sent through Microsoft 356. They don’t. Just bits.
I’m not going to debate the impact of cable quality, DAC quality, the impact of tubes, or even most of what people claim about electrical/magnetic interference. But claims about bits not being bits is another matter. Claims like this are objectively false and detract from the integrity of the community. They also open the door to the exploitation of less-experienced and vulnerable consumers with bogus products. In my opinion, that’s a problem.
17 Likes