Remove “In Their Prime” -- it' ageist, insulting to the artist and ridiculously subjective [not on roadmap]

I confirmed I have a null Qoboz account connected and it only shows the prime as beginning at 1990 even though I have Daydream Nation in my local library.


Yeap, that’s part of why I’m so perplexed and further bugged Danny - if you look at the screenshot I posted, it’s behaving as (I feel) it should, and prioritising my library, then blending the stuff I don’t have (Diamond Sea) in from Qobuz. So if I hit play, it’ll play from local. What it hasn’t figured out is that there’s stuff in there that Qobuz doesn’t have, and that it should use.

This is possibly an edge case, but it’s an interesting one.


If you have no streaming service enabled you don’t see In Their <insert nebulous, inoffensive, impossible to misinterpret PC term here>, so I’m guessing the answer to your question is no, your local content doesn’t count.

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Indeed this part is still ambiguous. Clearly in Xekomi’s case the pre-1990 local files are there but his SY prime is still 90-95. So I could not bear the tension and am ripping Daydream Nation now :slight_smile:

Edit: Having imported the rip. As expected, Roon knows the metadata, but so far the Prime result is same as for @Xekomi, prime has not changed (yet). But it has not had much time yet.

@danny What’s IMO interesting is that Daydream Nation has a an automatic “pick” by Roon metadata, but none of the albums that are in my (Qobuz) Prime have one. I believe, naively, that given the definition of “pick”, this should be taken into account by Prime even for local files - I don’t know what else Qobuz could tell it, all the expected album metadata is visible even without the album being in Q

Edit 2: Metadata bug: It uses a Gerhard Richter as the artist for the cover painting, but the GR it chooses is some kind of classical musician, not the painter

The way a future devotee would discover The New Kids of Birmingham should lend a bit of weight to this.

Here’s where Qobuz thinks you should start (note the very legitimate looking and sounding “War Pigs Live American Radio Broadcast”):

Here’s how the system currently known under a possibly offensive term but please tell me this is all a troll I've already lost enough faith in humanity handles it:

So please give serious thought to making In Their Prime visible early on, say right after the bio, because no matter how good Ten Year War was, having a bit of a structured path helps.

This is great example (qobuz + local content), we are looking into this now.

Thanks @Xekomi and others


Love that this has been fruitful.

I want this feature to exist, and I want it to be good. When Amazon and other Ecommerce companies launched “recommended items” they were insanely overdetermined. If you bought a red pan, it assumed all you ever wanted in life was more red pans. Buy diapers, and you are done. It took a while and a lot of use and people publicizing bad stuff. But now it works spookily well. And I’m used to it enough to know when it’s misbehaving and imagine why.

This will be the same. Edge cases and corner cases notwithstanding, it’s an awesome idea and will take a while to learn. And if this was the MVP, kudos. Yes, I wish it was categorical regardless of whether you had certain albums in your library locally, streaming, or not at all — it would make a lot of sense to me if it had a “greyed out” cover of all the great albums I don’t currently have.

And I agree that in aggregate, it would be great to leverage the anonymized data of all the users of Roon to make the Borg stronger.

But in this moment, on this thread, I want this feature to exist. Heyday, prime or otherwise.


I’d love for you guys to consider this for those who have local collections too. If I find a lot of 300 CDs for 100 bucks, I may have just added 20 albums from 2-3 artists, 5 from another, etc… and now I’m trying to discover them too. Where do I start? Right now I’m just plugging in a null Qoboz account, but if the content is there locally that would generate it with Qoboz, please consider showing this. Feature parity if the content is there just seems like how Roon should always work when possible.


The very people who are insulted by the intentions of this feature are not the people for whom it is intended.

I don’t need anybody to tell me Neil Young’s best years - I have my own opinion. However, I’m new to exploring Bud Powell, for example, and love the help this feature gives me on where to start. All it is is a way in for newcomers.


According to the algorithm Bud Powell’s „prime“ was from 51-53. I tell you it was not and you’d be missing a lot from his later recordings.
The OP offered good arguments, examples and a reasonable alternative name. I don’t understand why people (not you) keep on ridiculing this thoughtful critique of and suggestion about a Roon feature.
If AI could automatically sort albums by different eras of a musician or band cool Jazz, bop era, fusion era for example with miles Davis) I’d be impressed. But the way the feature works now is not impressive but rather misleading.


‘In their Prime’:
In Antiquity, the era of the Old Greeks, not the birthday nor the day of passing away counted. It was the period when a hero flowered. The name for it was ‘akme’, the period in which he was most productive.
Michel G.

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I am thinking my music by albums, not interpreters. So I barely use t he artists page. In the end i don’t really care how you name the feature (which could be a great feature btw). I just think that the OP and others made some valuable comments, which should not be responded to by ridicule or blame of political correctness. Thanks.

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I do not get why some people go ballistic on such feature (in their Prime). It is pretty much subjective like any other recommendation as well. No one is forced to use it nor has to take this as ultimative truth.

I think we can wish and ask for changes and I am pretty sure if the majority of users is voting for changes Roon will consider it carefully.

However, I do not like the expressions and wording of some folks. This is a software product, indeed a very good software product. Nothing to go wild!

Only my two cents.


Interesting thread from the fine-tuning aspect.

From an informative and functionality perspective, if as has been mentioned an artist’s work from the aforementioned “peak career period” is incomplete due to the source data not matching an available album (as that album is not found locally or on subscribed/connected services), should we still be able to see it and read information on it?

I think it may be hugely beneficial to many for a greyed-out/shadowed icon or avatar for the work to still be visible with the ability to read associated narrative. (A hover tag for these with a consistent message of “Album not in library or available from subscribed services” or similar should prevent user experience annoyances).

The advantage here would be to highlight work(s) that might otherwise remain unknown to the person browsing. It may prompt them to try to find that work elsewhere (either by purchasing files/physical media or by alternative streaming service).



How/why does an artist get this banner? I tried a few at random. Sometimes an artist gets a prime banner, sometimes not. Same with collaborators.

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Although this thread has ended up with a potentially positive outcome with @danny taking this away to look at (looking into how local as well as streaming library could be incorporated into ‘In Their Prime’), the way the thread title is worded leads to massive overreactions, heated debate, and upset people, click bait for sure.
I suppose thats how you get people to take a look at the thread in the first place, but surely a less inflammatory title would have been a nicer starting point for a good conversation?

I dont find ‘In Their Prime’ at all ageist or potentially insulting to the artist - yes it is is subjective but for most of the bands I have taken a look at it seems pretty bang on from where Im sitting.
I struggle to imagine that anyone is so angry in life to take offence, maybe its me thats not normal, who knows!?!


I like the feature. If I’m looking at a new-to-me artist, for starters just give me best albums from their years of greatest relevance in the “zeitgeist”, influence, innovation, sales clout, whatever you want to call it. Every artist has this period, then sooner or later they go into more of a “legacy artist” mode. That’s no more ageist than saying a person generally can’t run as fast when they’re 60 as they can when they’re 25. It’s just the reality.

If I’ve just discovered a 70s or 80s band, I don’t need the first album I encounter to be the their cash-grab reunion LP from 2012 with only 2 original members, that had little cultural impact, attracted few new fans, & was mainly done as publicity to get existing fans to shell out for their upcoming tour. It’s just clutter, until and unless I decide I’m all-in on that band. If at that point I want to find that (possibly totally decent) album, the “discography” button does, in fact, exist.

Would any sane person tell a Black Sabbath newbie to start with Forbidden or a New Order neophyte to start with Get Ready or a Fleetwood Mac newcomer to start with Time? Of course not. I happen to love New Order’s 1993 Republic album. Roon says that 1983-1989 was their prime. Am I insulted on NO’s behalf? Of course not. I know it’s just a handy starting place. Actually, in NO’s case 1987’s Substance compilation should definitely be listed as it’s really THE place for people new to New Order, but it’s not.

The feature is just a place for beginners to begin, that’s all.


Exactly. Perfectly put.

You can argue that Springsteen’s High Hopes album is a highlight (OK, you actually can’t, but bear with me), but for someone wanting to discover what the fuss is about, that’s not the most helpful place to point them towards. I’ve found this function helps me get my bearings around any number of artists I want to explore.


I have no problem with the title (as an artist I realize my prime was a long time ago) though perhaps a “Best of…” might have sufficed and covered more ground. I do have issue with the giant ‘shouty’ year numbers that take precedence over the albums themselves (which have the release dates repeated directly underneath). Trying to figure out what exactly this ‘feature’ brings beyond just going to an artist’s discography or album page and finding out what their best albums are. Perhaps tie ‘ITP’ into discography, so that ITP choices are somehow highlighted within the discography view. As it currently stands, I feel as if I’m being given a half dozen different routes to get to the same place. My ADD gets kicked into overdrive! :slight_smile:


Absolutely, especially ahead of Republic, any day of the week.

Let’s take New Order. In Their Prime seems to filter out what it sees as “greatest hits” albums. But, I would argue in their case “Substance” was the breakout album and even though it contains hits, it was not a greatest hits collection, but, rather a compilation of non-album extended releases and should be included in the display.

On the other side, under The Cure, the best of singles collection Galore IS included in the prime selection, I am assuming because there is a version that has incorrect metadata and so it is leaking through.

I would rather it be a gathering of the best reviewed or even best selling albums. Heck, for most new listeners to a band, a best of, anthology, etc release is much better exposure for a new user, than an unguided “list” of albums to try (no matter how great they are).

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