Roon 1.4 - Radio Feedback

Radio 1.0 didn’t remain exclusively in a genre like prog. It expanded slightly beyond that. I thought it was a good blend. Could it have stretched out a bit more? Absolutely. But it’s just gone too far in the current implementation.

What was nice about it also was that even if a Yes song started Radio, it tended to stay in vicinity of where Yes was at the time of that song, seemingly accounting for even the year the song was released and where music was at that time. It seemed smarter than just a random search through a genre.

I grew up in the Philly area where we had only two radio stations serving up classic rock at the time. Both went heavy on Bruce, but a good bit of other artists were thrown in. They had to appeal to broader tastes given the limited options in those days. I cringed back then when the occasional Lou Reed song got play. It’s been decades since I’ve been subjected to that. So if Radio 2.0 is trying to replicate that, it seems they succeeded. I’m hoping that’s not their intended direction though.

I don’t usually participate on this forum. I just came here make Roon aware of the issue. Those guys rock so I have little doubt Radio will continue to improve. I’m now way past beating a dead horse so I’ll return to lurker mode. Thanks to all those who offered support for my position.

Hey folks, thanks again for all the feedback. Just wanted to provide a quick update here about some developments in the last week, and about the overall trajectory of Radio.

@Geoff_Coupe’s report above gave me an idea, and we did some testing and found a bug :slight_smile: Right now, Radio should only start based on content from your library. We are planning to remove this limitation soon, but for now TIDAL content that’s not in your library should not start Radio.

The bug causes Roon to start shuffling the entire library instead of playing similar content when the queue ends on a TIDAL track from outside your library. In this case you would see “Playing Music Similar To Your Library” as shown in some of the screenshots above. Obviously, these selections would not be related to what you were listening to, and could certainly can give the appearance of some very random selections. This issue should be resolved in our next release.

Now that’s a nice crisp bug, and one that we’ll be rolling out a fix for soon. That said, I doubt all the feedback in this thread is related to that one issue, particularly based on the other screenshots I’m seeing in this thread.

As I mentioned previously, ensuring that Radio always makes great picks is our goal, and since the previous algorithm was quite simplistic, we really consider this our first attempt. The new Radio algorithm is built to learn smarter behaviors over time, and also supports some very granular tweaking by our team in response to feedback we hear from you guys. Improvements will happen continuously over time, but I do want to be clear that low quality picks are different completely random selections caused by bugs.

Roon’s Radio functionality gets smarter all the time, but in general the selections are only going to be as good as Roon’s knowledge of the initial “seed” selection. If we don’t have genres for the initial content, the picks may feel less related. If the initial album isn’t identified, we may lack knowledge of the artist or performer, as well as their influences, related artists, and more. Unidentified albums may also lack credits and composer data that helps us correlate content.

It’s worth mentioning that if you’re only using your own genres instead of Roon’s, the selections may lack some of the “guardrails” that are built into the system. If your Genre grooming is incredibly detailed, you may end up with a great experience, but Radio is going to make better picks if it knows about 40 sub-genres of Jazz, as opposed to having everything just tagged as “Jazz”.

Additionally, Radio is designed to limit repetitiveness with regards to artists, performers, and albums. If your library is small, and you only have a handful of artists in a given genre, you may get broader selections as we branch out, rather than the same artists coming up over and over.

Radio may also be giving weight to factors you’re not aware of, or which don’t translate well in practice. In my early testing, I saw 80’s New Wave Punk content come up after starting with a current R&B track. It turns out the punk artist had been sampled on the R&B song and got a songwriter credit. So they were related, but the pick didn’t really work.

We made changes to the algorithm after noticing that, and we will continue to tweak the selections as reports come in. Again, the most important thing you guys can do is give me detailed reports including the information I mentioned above. Feel free to also provide us information about what picks from your library would’ve been more appropriate, or what types of connections you feel need to be emphasized more.

Hopefully this insight is helpful for everyone interested in helping us get this right. When reporting issues, please continue to provide details about what metadata Roon has for the seed, and for any bad selections you want to report back to us. Additionally, the more you can tell us about what would constitute a good pick for you, the closer we’ll be able to get.

Radio will continue to improve, so please keep the feedback coming. We really appreciate it.

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But, there might be times that I would want this to occur. For me, it would be fascinating to uncover that the punk artist was given a writing credit on an R&B song. How will you accommodate the fact that two users are wanting their Radio experiences to be vastly different?

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@Rugby
…I seem to remember that LMS / Squeezebox had some kind of ‘random-ness’ slider…?
This controlled the ‘accuracy’ of the random-play / shuffle option - I think. They must have used some ‘breadth of choice variable’ in their algorithm.
Maybe someone else can chip-in with more details…?

I think some of the differences in a non-adjustable algorithm will always be there as our expectations of radio stations are different.
I would prefer silence to having to listen to a station that stayed inside one genre and had a tiny artist choice (roon radio V1). I like radio shows such as radio paradise or the blessed John Peel as was. (roon radio v2)

If you just listen to Rock FM then you are going to hate a mixed play show and vice versa.

As has been mentioned by a number of people a dashboard of sliders to adjust the radio (and generated playlists) would be an idea. Such as delivered in Music IP https://www.spicefly.com/article.php?page=spicefly-sugarcube-settings which allowed you to set your randomness, repeats, jaggedness of the genre change, etc etc. to generate playlists from your library.

One of the biggest flaws in my opinion is that the radio is based on genres of the album not the track.
If you want similiar tracks to the one ballad on a Black Sabbath album you never will get a satisfying result.
Only a system like MusicIP is capable of delivering really similar tracks. The MusicIP support is one of the things I miss most from my old LMS.
But nonetheless I enjoy Radio V2 most of the time. A big improvement in my opinion from V1. And if V3 will also play unknown tracks from Tidal, it will be a great.

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Do you know for sure that the album genre is the highest resolution metadata considered for the radio? That’s why I asked before how track based radio works. Unless they’re using machine learning or advanced audio analysis and instead rely on simple metadata it will remain limited in its capacity to play truly similar tracks. But I don’t want to assume…

using build 298, seed was the Ruins album by First Aid Kit (Tidal, but in my library).

first Radio selection was Lyle Lovett, then Tom Jones, both of which might be ok, but then we went to early 70s Poco, and an instrumental breakdown, before segueing back to Eva Cassidy.

3 of the four are defensible, but none of those three was released w/in 10 years of Ruins.

Radio 1.4 isn’t really working for me. So maybe this feedback will help. I use both roon and my own genre tags, All selections were identified.

My seed was “Feels so Right”, Alabama.

I got a lot of borderline female Pop/Folk which would have been ok if balanced with more Country/Rock. Feels so Right is a ballad but I was still expecting more of a tempo mixture. Especially as I had chosen the “picks” before hand starting off with “Mountain Music”. But it really went off the rails when it found a classical guitar version of Vivaldi’s Four Seasons. This was particularly annoying because it is a typical classical multi-part work and it played the whole thing:

After that there was some New Order, Ennio Marricone before getting back on track with Dr. Hook.

But then it carried on with too much down tempo female Pop/Folk before finding some flamenco (Paco de Lucia)

That’s when I switched radio off. The only thing I can see linking it all was an acoustic guitar theme. But it wasn’t what I was expecting and I wasn’t really surprised in a good way.

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Yeah it used to work before. Random choices now it seems.

Hi all
just caught up with this thread. Radio V2 works much better than before certainly but is a bit too random for my liking after a while. It seems to start out with good intentions but loses it somewhere along the way. Perhaps it loses sight of the original seed? And it also depends whether you want to go on a journey or stay in a mood? If I start with the Eagles on a Sunday morning session, I don’t want Slip Knot turning up anywhere in the playlist, not even if a brother of one of the backing singers did vocals on an obscure B side demo single one time! I don’t have Tidal, so that particular issue is not affecting me.
If this community had voting buttons for features (likes are a little imprecise) , I would certainly vote for having a bunch of sliders to adjust the various degrees of influence over the various choice factors. Of course, once/if this is implemented it becomes difficult to work out what might be going on, and even more difficult to complain about it (well, you set those sliders that way…)

Maybe the way to do it is to have Roon Radio display the characteristics it uses to determine what to play on Radio - genre, artist associations, etc. – and to let each of these be a slider between wide, narrow, and don’t use, or something like that. Direct access to the logic would be great.

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Every single time that a Yes song starts Radio, soon thereafter a song from the Grateful Dead and then Lou Reed will play. This time it was “To Be Over”from Relayer that started Radio. Of all the classic rock albums in my library, why do these artist keep being slected as being similar to Yes? Ridiculous.

I take back that Radio 2.0 is “too random”. Instead I’ll go with “too predictably stupid”. All that wonderful metadata to make smart choices, and this is the result?

Is there any learning incorporated such that Radio 2 can get smarter? The thumbs down to the next song to be played by Radio is not a good option as I don’t keep my eyes on it. I want to be able to hit thumbs down while Radio is playing a song and have Radio remember that and gain some intelligence.

I guess in the interim I’ll need to pull some music out of my library. Like the Christmas music that NEVER got thrown in with Christian music with Roon 1.0. Also the Grateful Dead and Lou Reed albums. I got these many years ago hopping that one day I’d gain a liking for them. In over a decade I’ve not once ever been in the mood to listen to them. Now they come up regularly. Sigh.

I really loved Roon and Radio was a big part of that. Yeah Radio 1.0 could be repetitive at times, but at least the repeated song was similar.

My impression as well.

added the new Melody Gardot album (live in europe) to my library, added appropriate genres to the tags. i have her other four albums already. started Melody Gardot Radio, and this is what i got:

i love the Tallis Fantasy, but it seems an odd choice in this context, and there must be a way to filter out Christmas/Holiday content when its not seasonal.

Had a really weird transition earlier today. I was playing an album by Letitia Vansant which by the looks of the credits has been recognised by Roon (sorry, only have Roon on headless server, iPhone and Pixel, so can’t be sure). The album played out, Roon Radio kicked in and it played:

  • KT Tunstall - Suddenly I see
  • Dan Bern - Dutch Girl
  • Karla Bonoff - Home
  • Zoe Muth - Never Be Fooled Again
  • Roxy Music - Tara

and then the wheels fell off and the next pick was

Erich Kunzel - Olympic Fanfare.

Really a jarring turn worthy of the mute/ skip button.

I use my own genre’s and Roon’s - aside from a few ethnic genre’s of my own there’s a 1:1 correlation between Roon’s and mine. The ethnic genre’s don’t come into play for any of the stuff in this post.

The only genre tag for this album is Country (which is another one of the gross generalisations that cause people to criticise Roon’s genres - albeit the issue lies with Rovi’s lack of editorial quality). Sorry, I didn’t catch the playing similar to screen in time.

Get this one: was listening to “One Night in Bangkok” by Murray Head, that 80s New-Wavey classic. Got up to eat dinner with the family and radio kicked in. When I got back it was playing Gene Kelly and then Frank Sinatra.

I know why - they are probably both in the “Musicals” genre wherever that might be. But still, definitely a “fail” although I understand it is hard to work out the kinks in radio.

This is why I’d really love some sliders and other controls for Radio. Then we could determine if Radio is genre based, based on some other criterion we use, etc.

New to Roon so I’m hoping there might be some tweaks to help me out.
With Track Radio I’m not looking for new music discovery that is different from the ‘seed’ track, I’m looking for the system to automatically play music that has the same sound and feel of the ‘seed’ track. So far, Roon is far from my expectations.
Examples…
1st example. Seed Track is a slow and relaxed track from Enya (I can’t remember the exact track name, but my goal is relaxing music to fall asleep to, it didn’t have any words in the song, just humming). The first two tracks played are slow Enya tracks (good start). Third track is an upbeat tune from The Cranberries (nothing like the seed track). Fourth track is an upbeat tune from Hootie & The Blowfish (nothing like the seed track). Fifth track is 3AM from 3 Doors Down (nothing like the seed track).

2nd example. Seed Track is from a stoner metal band Sword (I can’t remember the exact track name but it was slow and heavy). The first track is Laguna Sunrise from Black Sabbath (good start, very similar sound to the seed track). Second track is Nickelback (nothing like the seed track). Third track is Motley Crue (nothing like the seed track). I can’t remember the next several tracks but none of them were close to the seed track.

3rd example. Seed Track is another slow and relaxed track from Enya. First several tracks were new age folk which is similar in genre to Enya but these tracks were much more upbeat (nothing like the seed track). Interspersed with the new age folk tracks were also several pop artists that were all more upbeat (nothing like the seed track). Through approximately 15 tracks, 40% of the tracks were Christmas songs (nothing like the seed track).

Also I would like there to be a radio feature that will play multiple genres (ie. Luke Bryan, Motley Crue, Sam Smith, Five Finger Death Punch). It would be great to create a Playlist with specific songs of different genres and then use a “Playlist Radio” button to automatically mix similar sounding songs from that playlist. Deezer’s Flow feature does this very well. Slacker also mixes very well. Tidal doesn’t mix at all. Pandora doesn’t mix at all.

If the Roon Radio feature is this abysmal, I’ll have to pass after my free trial. But I love the sound quality so I hope it all works out.

I got into trouble with Radio the other weekend. I’d put on a Frank Sinatra Tidal playlist to keep the girlfriend happy while I was cooking barbecue outside and she was making salads inside. After the playlist finished I heard screams and cries coming from inside and she stormed outside in an aggravated fashion. “Your bloody hifi just played bloody slide guitar country music again”. I managed to convince her that this was not deliberate on my part and, this time, avoid physical assault, but it was a close run thing. History showed Frank Sinatra was followed by John Hiatt.

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