Sorry, no offense meant.
I had trouble believing that the mighty hardware designer John Westlake would find the Roon forum ‘very complicated’ or that Roon wouldn’t respond to his e-mails.
Seemed like a spoof, but evidently not so.
So after watching the Intro video - can the Rpi run the Control App and Audio Bridge?
Is this what Harrys software is?
Hey 
Non taken I very thick skinned after the years of abuse yelled at me here in the Lab
Well I’m retired now, and the Roon Guys at Munich did not seem to know me - or answer to my Emails… so “Mighty” can be a very relative term
I’ve never considered myself “famous” in this industry, I kinda keep myself to myself… working / living in backwater locations in Asia or now in the Czech Rep. does not help I guess
3 Likes
No, the RPi can run the audio bridge (“RoonBridge”). You can control the RPi (which then becomes a so-called “Roon Zone”) with either the mobile app or desktop app.
I’ve added support for the Raspberry 7’’ screen, and then you have (limited) control from their as well.
John,
As well as a screen-equipped version I think that there would also be interest in a ‘headless’ version i.e. something that had an ethernet input, could run Ropieee / RoonBridge and provide balanced (XLR) output from twin ESS9028 DACs.
Is something like that possible? Can the DAC board connect to a ‘normal’ raspberry Pi using I2S interface - or will it only work through your streamer board?
If something like this was possible it would find a place where I think that there is a hole in the market i.e. between Raspberry Pi HATS with single DAC chip and RCA outputs (below £100 cost) and streamers with dual DACS (above £1,000).
Mike.
I think that’s what the mentioned ‘ministreamer’ is about. It’s basically a competitor for the MicroRendu’s and alike I guess.
Mike,
The DevDAC platform uses the newer ES9038Q2M Hyperstream II DAC’s from ESS these sound better then the earlier generation Hyperstream DAC’s - especially with native DSD.
While the design is RPi based the uses of the industrial CM3 (ComputeModule 3) allows us to heavily optimized the hardware for audio applications - so its only “RPi” from a software perspective. The onboard local switching PSUs, Audio, Ethernet and USB clocks are all synchronized to reduce random “beating” between clock domains - low noise PSU’s etc. This is not possible with the RPi board.
For greatest future flexibility and to be able to added extra features via software, the audio subsystem coprocessor (32 core XMOS) is heavily interconnected with the CM3 - we can add MQA, ADC’s etc.
Pricing is hard, we have a optimized “MiniStreamer” in the works which is USB output only - intended to work with any USB DAC, but with our own DAC designs in mind - such as the AudioLab MDAC & ProJect S2 series.
The little ProJect S2 DAC is very decent for the selling price - and when combined with the Ministreamer really sets the upper selling price for the DevDAC streaming solution - although the DevDAC is a more advanced design – its targeted at DIY / software developers.
John,
Thanks. Sounds like what I would need for Roon would be MiniStreamer + DevDAC with Roonbridge (ideally Ropieee) software running on the CM3.
Does that sound right? Is it something that you are planing to test? Would the MiniStreamer take a network input as well as (or instead of) a USB input?
Harry,
I’m guessing that Implementing full Roon control must be a complex task - otherwise you would have already done it?
Or is it that you don’t really see a usage case of Control App with and Audio bridge in a single device?
I can support you with hardware / firmware if you where interested in developing such software…
John - I am also looking into creating a Roon end-point using the RPi. I already started by setting up a Roon Bridge on a RPi.
According to Rob Darling of Roon, Roon Bridge cannot be used in a stand-alone already programmed product. Roon Bridge is only for end-users to program.
For a finished ready to use product with Embedded Roon, you must use RAAT SDK. This must be licensed using SDK license agreement and each device gets registered so it can be properly identified by Roon. The manufacturer must also agree to the Co-Marketing checklist that lists your device and company on the Roon website. Once these are done at no cost, the manufacturer can develop drivers and software for a board that works with the RPi. Once this is complete, Roon will test and certify the hardware and allow you to claim “Roon-Ready” for your product.
Developing the software and drivers for your hardware can be done evidently by the developers of the RPi OS, including Volumio and DietPi. Roon can direct you to these or other third party developers that can help with the software. You may need to contract with them. I’m not sure how much of this is already existing that they can quickly leverage. A lot I think. Also, I am not sure of how much of it is proprietary to other manufacturers.
I have asked how much of this certification can be avoided if one only develops a HAT board and not a complete working system. It would be up to the user to load and configure the software.
I think the goal of the certification is that Roon wants to have some control over the quality of the Roon experience, both hardware and software. Much like what Apple Mac was originally before they let third parties develop less stable software for it…
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
1 Like
Steve,
Thank you for the details - Roon seems to be following the business model of larger companies - as a smaller manufacturer it gets rather tedious and tiring trying to comply with all these requirements.
Now, that said, I’m not sure if there’s any financial obligation in implementing Roon on a device - or if the certification is for free?
I guess we can ship an “empty” unit and point the customer to relevant software.
WRT drivers - I avoid this whole bag of hurt by using USB + HID, if any extra communication is required between CM3 / Audio hardware then we can open an UART channel over the USB - or use the I2C / SPI ports on the CM3. The XMOS gives us great flexibility in the regards.
Everyone I’ve spoken to about streamer software is totally nuts - I’d like to earn the prices they ask for!
What we should do is form a small audio manufactures working group and work towards a common platform that can be integrated into our devices with a simple per unit royalty…
Off the top of my head I can bring 4 larger customers who can commit to 1K - 2K units “opening” orders each (I’m talking about much smaller numbers for my bespoke designs). I can develop the hardware platform and firmware - what we then need is a software partner who would be happy with say US$10 royaltie per unit…
Hi John,
I think it’s the latter. Roon users are used to controlling their audio playback chain either from their mobile or the Roon desktop app.
Now, I’ve implemented simple controls (play/pause, previous, next, radio on/off, shuffle) on the screen (as you can see on www.ropieee.org), so such a limited feature set might be enough to start with.
Harry,
In my eyes this is the very problem with streaming products - “Streaming company’s” don’t understand the “old school” HiFi users who don’t want a computer / Phone / Tablet in there listening room.
I want a system that always works - simple and “constant” - like a CD player.
I load my CD into the draw and press play (and unless its one of my earlier Cambridge audio designs ) the CD will start playing…
The reason I like the idea of an Integrated screen / touch panel or HDMI monitor support / wireless keyboard is that they are stable - “constant” and just work - my POS iPhone is anything but… I just want to listen to music not mess with computers etc. I’m not IT literate and NEVER want to be!
As a manufacturer there are a few basic needs for a streamer
- Spotify
- Tidal
- Roon
- uPnP
- VTuner or some other internet Radio steaming service
Everyone then wants to add coffee machines and other extras, but IMO with the above “basics” you can sell a streamer.
Harry,
WRT implemented controls - Volume level control is a basic requirement & some way of configuring the network details on the device…
Mike,
The MDAC2 Streamer PCB + DevDAC board is the configuration you need - this supports a network connection.
Believe it or not, sourcing a chassis is the hardest part for me… the above are supplied as a PCB set without case so is not customer friendly - rather for DIY and developers…
Interesting discussion about the bare minimum that people want.
What bugs me about the Roon ecosystem is that you pay multiple times for the same thing. Buy Innuos or KEF LS50W or whatever and your still paying for all their hard work on Tidal integration, Spotify, an app and other bits Then you buy Roon and pay again for these things. Most RoonReady partners are trying to offer everything out of the box, which costs the consumer.
All I really want is 2 devices; 1. RoonBridge + DAC for connection to amp, 2. RoonBridge + DAC + Amp for driving multiroom speakers.
Glad you brought this up. Dunno if you are still officially connected with the company, but I have been waiting with much anticipation for the S2 to come to Amerika as I am totally onboard with the design.
Until then a couple of questions -
- This some controversy/confusion about the USB and 5V DC. The manual states that using both for power simultaneously will/may result in sound degradation. Some people on this forum say they have used both at the same time without any effects. To add to the confusion, some people believe that if one uses both ports that the USB port will carry only data and the 5V will carry power. I think they are confusing this with the iFi USB3 device. Some clarity, please.
- There is a rumor going around that the S2 is not being manufactured to your original design specs. Probably, you don’t care to comment, but if it is true blink twice.
- Any ideas when box is coming to Amerika?
Thanks and regards.
John,
Not having a case is an advantage as far as i am concerned - means I can use something that’s fits is aesthetically with my system.
Any details available on board size - and cost?
Roon documentation so far says nothing of a license or certification fee.
I think a good strategy might be to ship the S/W empty unit, but the flash image of the whole enchilada should be available on an SD card from somebody, like the OS designer, so it’s easy for the customer just to plug this in and power it on. However, there is still the problem of drivers and identification of the device to Roon. If it is not registered by Roon, can Roon still find it?
I am not an expert, but it seems that the HAT needs to be identified in the OS so it knows what inputs and outputs are needed on the connector and these are enabled. Then, the HAT needs to be identified by Roon. Maybe there are generic Roon identifiers that could be used, like a generic USB thumb-drive driver on Windows?
I have been designing USB interfaces for 6 generations now, including the latest XMOS. I recently designed a DLNA Ethernet interface with I2S and S/PDIF outputs. The Ethernet blows away the XMOS USB. Both designs use exactly the same clock and clocking circuitry. I think the problem is the USB playback and audio stack software in computers and the variability in USB interfaces. Therefore, I am avoiding USB altogether for the future. I have found that most USB interfaces in DAC’s are sub-par anyway, so I would rather that an external device drive I2S or S/PDIF to a DAC.
As for committing to 1K units, even that is a large quantity for me. I tend to only design the top-tier product that competes at the highest levels, so my products tend to be expensive and I don’t sell a lot of them. Many are almost hand-made because of exotic parts etc… It’s only been interesting to me to do this if I can compete at the highest levels with novel technology. I don’t need to do it for a living. I do it for fun, my personal audio, the personal business benefits and hopefully longevity (lifespan).
If I only had to pay say $1-2K to get the infrastructure in place so all I had to do was design the hardware, I would be all-in. Royalties would be even better, but they would likely involve minimum build quantities that I cannot guarantee.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Mike,
We should work on releasing Mechanical drawing with the outline of the PCB’s with Mounting holes
The DAC PCB is 120mm X 145mm
The streamer PCB 95mm x 154mm
The PCB’s are designed to be situated next to each other with a “hardwired interconnection PCB” between them - or a 34W ribbon cable if a more flexible mounting arrangement is required.
A single 12V DC power supply - say 1A is required for both boards - a Linear supply is recommended. We supply an universal “get you going” POS switching wallwart type PSU.
One point is that the streamer PCB is design to be located in the pending MDAC2 upgrade (remember this is a development system) - as such its mounted by its rear panel connectors and only has a single mounting screw. If its not mounted to a rear panel then some form of self adhesive mounting posts will be required.
I need to confirm that Harry’s RoPieee software will work with our platform - ATM it works with Volumio and we are now working with also implementing moOde.
I’m not sure if I’m allow to mention pricing here? (I’ll edit my post if not) - but the Streamer board is GBP249 & the DevDAC board including interconnection and SPDIF board is GBP299.
We can supply it “working” with Volumio - and work with you to add Harry’s RoPieee software (if there is no objections) once the unit has been shipped (ie. as an “aftersales” customer install).
The software is uploaded to the streamers onboard eMMC by software tools from the RPi website (For PC, MAC and Linux).
Basically the onboard eMMC appears as a USB Flash drive on your system and you can then copy over new software to the “Flash Drive” folder.