Roon Emotional Rescue

I find the Melco/ Aurender approach interesting. Melco is owned by Buffalo, a large Japanese manufacturer. They have the resources on the engineering, parts and design side to build the Melco server out of parts created specifically for audio by Melco. It’s not a NUC with a fancy case, it’s a well engineered audio specific closed ecosystem tied to their app. All in a low power, low noise environment. Aurender does something similar.

Contrast that to Roon which is relatively processor intensive and essentially relies upon an inherently noisy computer to function. Added to that, with the desire to be compatible with a mass of different manufacturers, Roon can’t possibly achieve the specificity of the closed Melco and Aurender systems.

How all of this translates to sound quality, I’m in no position to say beyond armchair speculation. Perhaps only a large audiophile dealer would be in a position to say definitively because of their wide access to gear over an extended period of time. Pro reviewers have gear come and go far more regularly.

But on the theoretical level, I find Aurender intriguing because of the closed eco system and their much better app than Melco.

It would also be interesting to see a Roon specific device, with every component tailored just for Roon and created by a company with the resources to deliver such a thing. The Nucleus, which is a NUC with a fancy case, is certainly not that device. Nor are the other servers for whom Roon is one of many options of their feature set.

Roon are genius programmers, yet they aren’t hardware manufacturers. I understand their market play, but can something that is designed to mesh with so many different hardware systems ever achieve the sound quality of a closed system? That’s a question, not a statement, as I truly don’t know.

It is an interesting question to contemplate.

2 Likes

Sad but true story… I have absolutely zero confidence in PS when it comes to software. The Bridge was poorly managed even when using a 3rd party. The Strata integrated has basically turned me completely off of ever believing PS can produce a software platform worth throwing dollar one at. And it’s not just developer competence but its rooted in a base misunderstanding, or really lack of BD knowledge, in what their competition is doing and who their customers are. I hope I’m wrong but the Strata has really soured me. I’ll get around to selling it one of these days.

If they get Roon Ready certification on their streamer then I’ll get excited but until then… I can’t imagine how dated the thing will be at launch when in the past year we’ve had significant major releases from the leaders in this space. The only, maybe, saving grace is the I2S output but I don’t own a PS DAC so that doesn’t help me.

anyway… lots of very good streamers, with or without Roon, available and software matters.

1 Like

I don’t have experience with all the gear that you’ve mentioned. I’ve pretty much stayed with the BHK, PerfectWave, and Directstream lines. I do have the Strata Phono Pre which is fantastic. In my opinion, it is better then my Parasound JC 3+. I don’t have any experience with the other components you’ve addressed other then the Bridge II which I’ve had zero issues with since day one. I use it as a Roon Endpoint.

If I were to get an integrated, I am pretty sure I wouldn’t purchase one that also streamed. That space is going to continue to evolve, and evolve rapidly. It’s also the reason that I am only interested in DAC’s that use FPGA’s. They generally have much longer term ownership as long as the manufacturer commits to new S/W on a reasonably regular basis. The PS Audio DirectStream DAC is a good example, I think I’ve had five major upgrades to that DAC. Each upgrade was like getting a new device. For an integrated I am looking at a Modwright KWH 225i or a Pass Labs INT-250 or INT-60 for my office for very long term ownership. Something that I won’t swap out for 10-20 years. I have a few other components that I’ve had that long. It’s nice to have a few established things that are part of my permanent collection.

The new gear, Lens and Octave, are slated for Roon Ready according to Paul. As I said, I’m not making any big decisions like a Pink Faun or other, until after this gear is released in '22. If it’s what I hope it to be, I won’t hesitate. Especially with such a generous return policy.

Just like most other components in HiFi your mileage may vary. So far my PS Audio journey has been without incident.

It’s difficult, from an end user perspective, to call the HDL of a FPGA “software”. I mean, it is software, but it’s software that is laying out an electrical circuit. From a user perspective, you interact with it the same way you interact with your coffee maker. It either males coffee or it doesn’t. When I use the term “software” I’m really talking about the stuff that runs on the general purpose compute inside of a device. The stuff users break, needs constant tweaking, endless new formats, etc. The stuff where you fully expect a manufacturer will have a release cadence, a way to track bugs, a roadmap of new features, etc. In the case of PS… they have botched this with every product that has “end user” software from Strata to the Powerplay mess to various Bridge issues (not so much Roon related). Anywhoo… I think we’re off topic other than they provide a good example of a company that has had an absolute terrible track record of living up to their promise of delivering end user software. It’s an example where the transition of a hardware focused company being dragged into the evolving world of “software everywhere” and they have not made that curve very elegantly. I do like their electronics though.

Roon has the inverse problem of attempting to support too many platforms.

I can’t argue with that.

There are advantages to a closed ecosystem where you have 100% control over the users environment. One reason I jumped on the Roon bandwagon was the fact its the most full featured, while still being relatively open, environment available. The advantages of the closed ecosystem start to disappear with a little DIY and following a few IT “best practices”. If I didn’t have an IT background my house would probably be filled with Naim gear (I like their interface and how stable it is) and we wouldn’t be chatting :slight_smile:

3 Likes

A cursory web search suggests the Octave has been in development since at least 2018 and links to info about it on PS Audio’s web site seem to be dead. Do you have info on it or links to info on it?

Paul McGowan has made it clear that Octave will not support Roon. PS Audio is coming up with their own app that I’ll be very surprised if comes remotely close to Roon functionality. Paul has stated that Roon sound quality is not good enough. They’re essentially going the Aurender/ Melco route.

1 Like

He might as well have said that Roon electrons smell funny :crazy_face:

6 Likes

I think this is a Strategic mistake that will cost them in sales. I for one will not consider a product that is not Roon compatible.

4 Likes

Good Morning

In my humble opinion this sentence is showing how lucky you are

For technical answers and solutions simply seat and relax, a Lord Master of Audio Knowledge will soon enlighten you and vanish your doubts

Merry Christmas!

1 Like

This was true but things seem to have changed. They are preparing a streamer which there is little detail on but one thing is clear it won’t support local storage. The streamer is supposed to support Roon and will be released ahead of…

The Octave Server which is their competing platform to Roon. I’m guessing Server got delayed to far to release a streamer on its own with no Roon support which is why they made the right decision here and changed course. Of course, this is all just posts from their forum and its all vaporware until it happens.

BLUF: I think you should keep your current computer as a Roon Core, and add the best Renderer / Streamer box you can afford, which supports the best-performing input for your DAC. Try something that you can return, because the design of your SACD Player / DAC may simply not allow the same performance on its digital inputs as you’re getting spinning discs.

You already have a lot of input here, but (based on a cursory read of the thread) here is a set of observations (or call them theories) from my experience, which inform the bottom line above.

  1. All other things being equal, streaming / file playback usually sounds best with dedicated devices (by which I mean purpose-built hw running purpose-designed sw only). I would argue that a dedicated / purpose-built server will sound better than any Mac Mini regardless of reasonable specs or what have you. Standard computers, whether a Mac Mini or whatever else, are electrically noisy, and distracted by other tasks, with a bunch of unnecessary (for audio) non-optimized sw.

(( The Roon Nucleus / NUC/ROCK approaches are a hybrid of these two extremes: they are purpose-designed software running on commodity / unspecialized hardware. As such I understand that they perform OK, certainly better than Roon running on the same NUC with a standard Windows install, but they are far from the best solutions available for direct connection to a DAC. ))

1a. The dedicated devices close to your DAC matter a lot more than those further away. The reasons that lots of people now have ridiculously long pre-DAC digital chains, or spend 25k on a Taiko Audio server, is in this effort to minimize the noise that comes from the computer (of whatever kind) required to run Roon, and the network connection (and router, networking equipment, etc) required for streaming and control functions.

  1. Different inputs on a DAC sound different. (frequently, often. Of course some theoretically perfect DAC has identical sound from all inputs, but reality is different) This is for various reasons internal to the DAC, but also that the cables and gear providing two inputs (USB vs AES for instance) are going to differ as well.

2a. USB is often the worst-sounding input in my experience. This varies by DAC of course. And as above, it matters a lot what is on the other side of the USB cable. USB cables also matter a lot, even in quite high-end gear. Annoying but true.

2b. This has got to be a lot more true in a disc-spinning box, where the clear priority is the sound of spinning discs. I’m not surprised that your physical discs sound better; but also given that your DAC is actually an SACD player with digital inputs added, you may want to consider that you might never get the same sound quality from an external input.

So if you consider points 1a and 2a in combination, the standard (and understandable and affordable) approach of attaching a normal computer to a DAC with a USB cable (even an expensive audio USB cable) is the worst of all possible worlds in terms of getting the best sound out of a DAC: the computer is busy doing a bunch of irrelevant stuff, and the USB ports on that computer were never designed to limit the EMI/RFI / ground plane noise that all that non-optimized computer activity sends down the cable riding the audio signal.

So let’s add
1b: The best way to minimize the damage your streaming/file playback infrastructure is doing to your DAC is to ‘insulate’ your DAC from that noise which exists in your computers, routers, etc. This is a kettle of fish; I and other idiots have multiple ‘audiophile’ ethernet switches, optical ethernet runs, dedicated streamer boxes (which are just very specialized computers), USB reclockers, etc., etc. Each of these does its part (in theory anyway) in cleaning up the signal that enters the DAC.

And sadly
1c: The stuff required to make your DAC sound its best may cost more than your DAC did.

Seriously though, I would look at a good streamer, and a way to clean up the ethernet going into that. See what that does for your Marantz.

3 Likes

If it’s not an issue with your gear it’s definitely an issue with your ears. It’s as simple as that.

1 Like

@qrd_skyline: absolutely agree. It all depends on the effort you spent on the digital path.

Most people think, digital are just bits and bytes, so no problem to copy them correctly from a to b.

But it isn’t just bits and bytes, it’s mostly timing. There are a lot of clocks involved in the digital path. And mostly they are worse, 20 cent pieces of hardware.

I know many people think reclocking the Ethernet and reclocking the digital signal is voodoo or overkill. Especially in combination with a 10MHz-Masterclock. But you and I know, there are things we cannot explain by simply copying bits and bytes in the correct order. It’s always a timing problem and a problem with our ear - a fantastic organ, much better than many technical approaches deliver.

It’s kinda hilarious that those that make counter arguments to reports of SQ differences in digital sources, always assume that these individuals implies that there’s a modification of the binary language. I am sure everyone accept that the digital signal cannot be modified and the reasons, albeit unknown lies elsewhere.

@Dirk_Beckers I didn’t see how much my post had in common with your earlier numbered post :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

We appear to have similar battle scars from digital front ends.

re: Here’s a terrible metaphor: Running a consumer PC into a $6k DAC is like buying a cartridge and turntable at best buy and running it into a $6k Phono Stage.

All that I’ll say to OP @DancingSea is that all this toil is worth it. You really aren’t hearing your music until you’re feeding your DAC correctly. Hopefully your unit is capable of the sound you’re enjoying with discs from its digital inputs, but you may have to spend some money to get there. DO you have access to friends with other DACs or streamers for you to try out?

The other point I feel I should add is to contextualize all of this… Depending on how far in you are, the DAC or what’s feeding it may not be the most relevant or the most tractable problem in your listening experience; or put another way your marginal dollar spent might yield more listening enjoyment or SQ improvement spent elsewhere. Acoustics and speakers make bigger differences than DACs and transports – generally. So if you have untreated or largely untreated acoustic issues, chasing stuff like this (as I told a guy – as politely as possible – who wanted to buy my used $200 ethernet cable or whatever to tighten up the bass in his modest system) is a waste of time. All of this digital front end stuff is audible to the extent your system, and your system playing into your room, reveal it. So for modest and lower-end systems all these digital front-end discussions (which we love on forums for whatever reason) are sometimes a distraction for music lovers who are newer to audiophilia, those who have modest systems, or those who have never taken a serious look at their room acoustics (or whose domestic situations don’t allow good speaker positioning, etc.).

Anyway I’m EDIT: NOT trying to characterize your system @DancingSea ; given that you hear the difference between discs and digital inputs you can hear the difference. Unfortunately now that we all expect to connect a computer rather than spin a plastic disc, the self-contained system of a CD player has blown up into a complicated system that includes a bunch of computers and gear from your ISP.

1 Like

This is from four days ago on the the PSA Forum:

Fact not fiction. Please do your research.

3 Likes

@Vincent_Kennedy good, I’m glad Paul changed his mind. He had been saying the opposite for years. If your expectation is that I exhaustive research every comment, you’ll be sadly disappointed. I can promise you that everything shall be deemed reliable and fully open to questioning. Once upon a time I participated regularly in the PS Audio forums, but due to continuing conflicts with Elk’s management style, I’ve quit!

I’m sure they’ve tried to make their own app and have seen how difficult it would be to achieve what Roon has.

Watched the latest Steve Guttenberg video and his friend has a $26K DCS Rossini that he uses with Roon to great satisfaction with enormous horn speakers. Thus I’ve added a mortgage to my house and the DCS is on order :joy:

I am hopeful that the coming Decware ZRock 2 (tube EQ) and the CSP3 (tube preamp) will create an environment for Roon to shine in my system and room. My complaint is that Roon is a little thin and the soundstage a tad less 3D compared to no Roon.

I believe a satisfactory to me Roon experience is very possible. Just a matter of the price and recipe to get there.

Hopefully PS Audio can pull it off. I spent a number of years with their gear but have found, to me, better design and build quality elsewhere. Paul is a master salesman.

6 Likes

I’d say, promise not product. Let’s see what actually comes out.

2 Likes