Roon Emotional Rescue

@qrd_skyline Thank you very much for the detailed, thoughtful and insightful posts. I continue to believe the Mac Mini is a primary problem (beyond me ears and me being half nuts). Yes, discs sound great on the Marantz, but so does Tidal Connect via the Zen Stream coax sans the Mac - which leads the finger back to the Mac. Of course, the Zen Stream is not the epitome of streamer quality, but given I’ve not heard anything better, it sounds great to me. If the $399 ZS is on par with the $39K Linn, then a court should shut Linn down immediately.

The Decware tube gear of course will not fix the core issue of the Mac Mini. But it might put on enough lipstick to make the pig good looking, so to speak.

Maui is bereft of audiophiles, just me and Mr. Underwood HiFi. But Wally’s warehouse is in Georgia, so it’s not like he has a ton of stuff to loan out and I don’t know him well enough to plunder his home. I have to order stuff from the mainland.

One step at a time. I now better understand the whole Roon Server/ Core/ ROCK issue and will pursue those experiments in a few months.

Mele Kalikimaka & Mahalo Nui Loa To All!

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As a correction, Melco has their own app, but is Roon Ready as well. It’s Aurender who refuses to be tempted by the sirens of Roon…

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Correct.
Aurender refused to play ball with Roon as they considered the sq to take a detrimental hit.
Although if memory serves me correct I could get my N100 to play to Roon over AirPlay?

IMHO their big marketing error Aurender. The presence of Roon Ready and the availability of the internal storage for Roon (like Melko) would increase sales. If there is no work for Roon to handle and manage thousand albums, the Aurender will be problematic and will require much greater efforts to systematize and preparing the library.

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Hey @DancingSea

I’ve just re-read your original post… I’m revising my opinion: I think the Zen Streamer is just not the right product for you. You could try upgrading to a linear power supply for the ZS, or adding an EtherRegen before it (is your Zen Stream plugged into a consumer-grade switch?) or a Singxer SU-2 after it, but really the lipstick is getting more expensive than the pig. Try something else (and spend more).

In my experience, I really did have to spend the same amount as my DAC – substantially more, in fact – to get the computer-based chain to sound comparable to a transport (PS Audio PST SACD transport).

To provide some perspective, at retail pricing, my DAC costs X, my transport costs X, and the entirety of my computer-based playback chain (including switches and reclockers and, sigh, cables and everything) costs 2.5-3X.

Back to my terrible metaphor: Running a great server into a crappy streamer is like running an a $3k cartridge and $3k tonearm on a $100 turntable. Does it sound better than the $25 dollar tonearm and $25 cartridge that came with the table?.. sure… but you’re wasting the spend because the performance of the great components get destroyed or filtered out by the crappy one. Keep in mind that the device closest to the DAC has the most impact on the sound of the DAC. I would much rather run a very good streamer, with a basic windows PC running Roon Core, then have a high-end server driving a Zen Stream. Even upgrading the power supply on the Zen Stream would make a bigger difference than roon core hw changes (I’d bet).

I would pick an amount you’re comfortable spending and try something on the used market like an UltraRendu with a linear (i.e. upgraded) power supply to feed your Marantz.


AFTER you have a solid streaming solution, if you want to keep the Roon UI and get better sound quality, you also have to experiment with different protocols, Roon > SqueezeLite and Roon via HQPlayer. This is what I’ve ended up with: a complex grab-bag of playback methods (Roon outputs to HQPlayer for DSD upsampling, I switch over to Squeeze Server / Squeeze Player to play DSD128/256, when I’m not using a dedicated SACD transport) which is, unfortunately, totally worth the results. Squeeze / Squeeze is the ultimate transparency (far more revealing than Roon and Roon endpoint), but Roon upsampled with HQP provides amazing SQ (and perhaps with DSD upsampling slightly slightly euphonic).

So: could you get rid of your Mac Mini and buy, say, an Innuos Zen Mini Mk 3. You would be replacing your current relatively fast computer with a more specialized, and less fast, computer with a relatively cleaned-up USB output. But replacing commodity-cost equipment (your Mac) with another specialized piece of equipment that costs a lot and actually adds very little in terms of functionality, has less storage, etc., and – given that you’re already using a streamer, and that streamer is presumably connected to your home network / router?? – doesn’t do really anything to separate your DAC from the badness of computers and routers.

I could see going to a NUC with ROCK, but I honestly would expect minimal to zero sound quality difference given that you’re using a streamer (and assuming the streamer is connected to your router or a switch, not the NUC of course). You would just be getting better UI performance and less maintenance overhead. Why spend the money that way?

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@qrd_skyline thank you for the detailed response! I have a MicroRendu 1.4 with an SBooster power supply. The 1.4 has the UltraRendu upgrade and cost $900. The Zen Stream is significantly better. Audio Excellence in Canada (YouTube) says the Zen Stream competes with any streamer they sell under $2000. Which isn’t to say the ZS can’t be bettered, of course it can. And there are a couple of Lumin T2 or D2 owners on this forum that claim the Zen Stream is better. These are all subjective opinions of course, but I’d be cautious in assuming the Zen Stream is the problem just because of it’s price. The same engineers of British high end brand AMR (Abbingdon Music Research) design the IFi products. So they know what they’re doing.

And I’ve used HQPLAYER with Roon for years.

The question then becomes for me, at what price does Roon sound sufficient for me? And that remains a mystery. If it’s going to take a $4000 streamer or server, then I’m likely to first audition an Aurender. I’m attracted to their low power philosophy, and Roon by nature will never be low power. Or maybe a Melco, but they are difficult to find with an audition.

The other idea is to get a better reclocker. I have a W4S RUR, which is somewhat pathetic. The Denafrips Iris has been catching my eye lately.

I think the best option it to listen through the stream as that’s the quality that your happy with.

You can’t just keep throwing huge sums of money at something lots of people say direct from a streamer sounds better, if you want to spend get a new DAC.

Long term I think Roon is a dead in the water ship, as time moves on more and more people will rely on streaming only. At 61 I no long have my local library mapped, its all replicated in Tidal to prevent duplication and library delivery across all my platforms hifi and mobile…
No company’s are doing fat applications, its all agile, cloud based AI driven.

The future is your music source via a connect app, into your streamer, dac, hi-fi.
Complicated and network intensive applications will fade, AI driven cloud based music selection will be the future.
I don’t think my LUMIN sounds any better than the Stream, I do think my external DAC sounds better than the LUMIN DAC.

Build something lean on components that provides you with flexibility at each stage of the delivery.

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I agree. Increasingly fewer people will choose to have personal large libraries of music on personal servers. It’s complex and expensive to integrate well with streaming and moreover by-and-large redundant. Although, its redundancy does act as data back up!!! (re: latest update). The advances in SQ from integrated components also pushes back on Roon/Server systems that require the user to find a whole-system synergy from a kit of parts.

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Perhaps, but personally, I don’t know to approach navigating an online streaming library with over 70 million tracks without a tool like Roon. There’s acres of crap to wade through to find something that’s worth a listen. Teaching family members how to use three different device-specific interfaces to find music that they like and get it to play optimally on hardware with different capabilities does not sound like fun either.

If something that solves these problems better than Roon comes along, I’ll certainly switch, but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

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I believe there is going to be a generous quantity of people who have spent years ripping CD and vinyl to a hard drive format of some description and will not suddenly abandon all that work and time invested.

Sure maybe the newer generation will be less dependent on a " physical" library but I believe there will be more than enough demand to keep Roon profitable for a long time yet.

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Might the future of Roon involve being bought by one of the major players to become their app? Even with local files removed from the equation, Roon remains head and shoulders better at library management than any of the streaming services own apps. In that Silicon Valley world, Roon could be purchased for a relative pittance.

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Agreed. I really like Roon and have no personal library. I just stream.

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Hmm. I’m just guessing here, because I’m not familiar with a) the zen and b) the rest of your system and how revealing it is.

Does the Zen run HQP NAA? Or are you running Roon Ready?
What is your Zen connected to? I’m assuming ethernet to a router?
You say you’re using HQP zone in Roon… are you upsampling, or running the original resolution with HQP ( “bit-perfect” ish).
Could you include a pic of your Roon playback window through the HQP zone?

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It’s revealing enough to show the inherent limitations of computer based audio :joy:

Both the MicroRendu 1.4 and Zen Stream run NAA quite well. But connecting a USB drive directly to the Marantz SACD 30n also sounds noticeably better. Essentially every experiment, and there have been many, sound better when no computer is involved. This likely leads, on the computer front, to investments in a better switch, a better reclocker, or perhaps an EtherRegen. Essentially a stable of gizmos to recreate the computer signal to a higher audiophile level. As much as I love and appreciate Roon, I’m not yet convinced it’s worth the investment to put Roon on a level playing field with what I’m hearing with no computer in the chain.

I’m thrilled with the “no computer” sound I have, can ask nothing more from audio. Yes, library management takes a big hit, but c’est la vie :sunglasses:

Well, you’ve got Marantz Musical Mastering working for you. So of course, what else could we expect?

Interesting, though. So it’s not the advanced transport of the CD drive that’s the key. Must be the internal DAC. I see it’s got a “low-noise” pre-amp, unlike the “not-so-low-noise” pre-amps the other manufacturers presumably use.

I like the way it looks. Stereophile’s Herb Reichart describes it as an "audio system designed to add an aura of worldly sophistication to any college professor’s home. " As a former [momentarily and really terrible at it] college professor, I can testify that it’s all about impressing those grad students with our worldly sophistication.

I hate to break it to you, but there’s a computer in that Marantz unit. That’s how it reads that USB drive that’s plugged into it.

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Playing physical media is just pure nostalgia. Nothing more. Nothing less… :smiley:

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As there is in the Sonore and Zen Stream streamers. The key, I believe, is that with both of those and the Marantz that the “computer” involved is very low power and single purpose built rather than a power noise buzz saw.

And physical disc remains the champ, so there is secret sauce in the Marantz transport.

Herb also states that when paired with Magnepan, the synergy is excellent. I have it with the LRS.

This review sums up my experience…

With my DirectStream Junior, high res sounded incredible, but at the expense of lesser recordings. With every Ted Smith update, another swath of long time favorites became unlistenable.

The Marantz SACD 30n is able to deliver just as well with A+ recordings, but also deliver on the lesser recordings. They’ve managed to do both, something the DSJ could not.

It’s worth noting that I have a Decware tube buffer in between the Marantz stack with a 1960 NOS Mazda 12AU7 tube which greatly enhances the tone and feel.

Herb only reviewed the matching integrated, the Marantz Model 30, but said this of the Magnepan pairing…

Driving Maggies
I’d been enjoying the Marantz Model 30 with every speaker I tried, including the 15 ohm Falcons, but with the $1400/pair Magnepan .7 quasi-ribbon panel speakers, my heart started pounding in my chest and heart emojis spewed forth into the room. The Model 30’s Hypex-based amplifier seemed to come alive with the 4 ohm Magnepan load. Stravinsky Conducts Histoire Du Soldat Suite (LP, Columbia MS 7093), traced by the humble Zu Denon moving coil, had me laughing, muttering “oh my God,” shaking my head, thinking, if this is how an approximately $6k hi-fi sounds, who needs more?

The Maggie-Marantz combo made sound images that were tall and precisely mapped. It was pure stay-up-late pleasure to gaze into their holographic enticements. Listening to Neil Young’s soundtrack to Jim Jarmusch’s film Dead Man (16/44.1 FLAC, Vapor Records/Qobuz), the Marantz Model 30 powering the .7 Magnepan panels took me further and more clearly into the dark campfire conversations of William Blake (Johnny Depp) and Nobody (Gary Farmer) than I had ever been before. The Marantz and Maggie .7 combo pulled out shovelsful of previously hidden subtleties.

I believe you’d have to spend at least $10k more to beat the LSD detail, CinemaScope soundstage, Technicolor tone, and nuanced dynamics of the Marantz integrated driving the .7 Magnepans.

The Marantz Model 30 is clearly a speaker-friendly amplifier.“

Looks like you found it.
Why bother with Apple, Microsoft, HQP, Audirvana, Roon etc…
Stay where you are and enjoy your music.
More experiments will lead to…
And yes, the Marantz 30 is, for the price, a fine music computer.

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