I’ve noticed this as well. My Bryston BDP-2 with it’s default MPD system sound much different/better than when Roon streams music to it. And in fact, my Sonos sounds better than Roon too. This is with all else being exactly equal (same files streamed from a Windows 10 PC as a server, with a SSD boot drive, and all wired gigabit ethernet connections).
I’m really getting to enjoy the Roon software. But if Sonos can beat it in both quality AND in functionality (endless sources for streaming), I can’t see continuing with Roon just for the pretty interface.
My understanding is that Roon Labs has no plans to work on the quality of the music being streamed, correct?
Roon streams bit perfect PCM or DSD to Roon Ready or Roon Bridge enabled endpoints. They (Roon Labs) take a lot of trouble to ensure that the audio chain is compromise free wherever possible and where compromises are made (e.g. downsampling) it’s because the endpoint or DAC cannot handle the native stream. When downsampling Roon again chooses quality over quick and nasty. As far as I know streaming to Sonos via Roon involves compromise. Regarding streaming via the BDP-2 using mpd vs Roon, perhaps check your setup with that of other BDP users - this is the first report I’ve seen where a BDP user has found there’s a degradation in perceived sound quality.
Hello, i would say that I experienced the same conclusion than Garrett with a Sonore microRendu. The DLNA setting on microrendu sounds better than the Roon ready setup : more musical, details and better tonal balance. There is more link in dlna between medium and high frequencies.
What is also interesting is that if,you replace the official os on the sdcard of the microRendu by another one (Jessie distribution for cubox-i) and you install on this distribution Roon bridge and Upmpdcli you would hear than it sounds even better than the original OS. In such configuration Roon bridge sounds better than roonready from the original and dlna sounds better than Roon bridge…
It is easy to do and easy to hear on a transparent system.
I think that Roon can’t really master the SQ on all systems according to different implementations but at least working to be as good as dln should be interesting.
BR
Garrett, I Totally agree to Evand’s proposal to check your setup.
I drive sonos digital out und roon (via ASIO driver USB digital out ) both to the same DAC (T&A DAC 8 DSD) and I can tell you I hear the same sound quality until CD quality. That’s Sonos’ max support for quality.
Having higher quality source (music files) or upsampling roon is able to transport bit perfect, whatever you have DSD 64, 128 or higher. By now I haven’t checkt the upsampling to 512 but I’ll try soon after having projected the appropriate PC setup.
To avoid any misunderstanding: Sonos is a great and easy to use and setup systen but has its technical limitations in sound quality. Especially if you take sons’ analogue output what I think is far lower than digital out (using sonos internal incopoerated hardware DAC - I highly reccomend to use digital output to acheive (max) CD quality. As described roon to sonos I see only as a work around to have flexibility but not the high quality approach.
It seems Garrett also hear some difference with Bryston…not only a question of sonos. It probably depends a lot on systems.
To what extend people want to hear some difference…or not … ?
I should have clarified a few things in my original post.
The player is a stock Sonos Connect, controlled via only Sonos software, connected via digital output to the DAC. I’m streaming FLAC files, created from CDs (16 bit, 44.1 KHz) using a licensed copy of dbPoweramp. The source is always the same (the Windows 10 computer). The DAC is always the same for all sources. The input on the DAC is always the same type (RCA 75 ohm). The digital cables are identical. The networking is always the same path, except that the BDP-2 and Sonos get separate inputs from the same gigabit switch. I don’t use Roon at all on the Sonos. On the BDP, the only difference is if I use the included MPD player or if I use Roon to stream to it. I even switched inputs on the DAC to see if that was an issue.
AudioCircle (where Bryston users congregate) is alive with similar posts from BDP users, including myself. Hard to know if this is expectation bias, but the general consensus there is that MPD and RAAT sound different.
Are you sure that they really sounds different?
Maybe the output volume slightly differs. The human ear can’t identify small volume differences as that they are. But the louder one sounds better for us.
So you need to remove ALL volume differences before you compare.
@AE67 is right about small variations in volume being a contributing factor to perceived SQ difference. One way of eliminating volume as a factor may be to use a mike with SPL software and see if there is any level change between Roon Ready and MDP.
Actually, my initial concern was exactly that. Two identical sounds will be perceived as different if one is even just a few decibels louder (with the louder one being perceived as ‘better’).
After several tests, it certainly is not a loudness issue.
With Roon, a guitar sounded so dramatically different that it caused me to believe I was listening to a different version of the song. That particular song was a live recording. It wasn’t slight at all. In other songs, there were other differences. In some cases, less differences.
With the Bryston BDP-1 its pretty darn close. If you really like MPD / DLNA, you should select that instead of Roon. As a suggestion, listen to only Roon for thirty days. It may be your own brain (ears) sensing the difference, and discriminating against the new sound signature. If after 30 days you think MPD / DLNA is better, stick with what you like. I’m sticking with Roon due to its many advantages in music cataloging, selection, and ease of use. On my microRendu, I actually like the Roon sound delivery better. Do What works for you…Enjoy the music…
So, there shouldn’t be any differences in volume, since Roon states they are also bit-perfect (i.e. no DSP during delivery).
As such, feeding the same DAC, et al., what else can account for the differences in perceived sound quality?
I’ve been spending weeks going back and forth, listening for days with one, switching to another, with familiar music and there really does seem to be a difference.
I find Roon slightly better than DLNA on a microRendu>Schiit Bifrost Multibit, and more clearly better on Sonicorbiter SE>Bel Canto mLink>Bel Canto C7R. Go figure… One thing to keep in mind is that RAAT is a realtime protocol, so less good networking (such as WiFi) may impact your SQ. I have everything wired with CAT 6 and pro routers and switches. Another thing to keep in mind is that “bit perfect” is not the whole story in that the Ethernet to DAC connection involves a (however small) computer whose electrical behavior (and so its ability to interfere electrically on downstream components) depends on what it is doing, such as receiving RAAT vs DLNA+uncompressing FLAC. Finally, there’s the question of the source material and listening habits for the test, we are all different there.
are both using the same output type to the DAC (coax, USB etc.)?
you could try capturing the output of both using audiodiffmaker and comparing outputs.
It’s a pity you’re not able to set up two DACs and BDP1’s side-by-side and have someone flip between inputs on a preamp to see if you can reliably tell which is which. All the same, pursue whichever your prefer.
I’m nearly in same configuration and DLNA sounds different than RAAT for my ears and for few others. In my case i prefer DLNA some others would prefer RAAT.
No wifi in my case even if wifi can be considered to be a good protocol to remove all perturbations that your cat6 can take. Few people prefer the cat5…try a optical bridge and some little things like the “Etalon Isolator” on rj45 and you should be happy. Putting in place a such system is complicated but motivating understanding how you can improve it.
That really is a minimal change and it’s hard to see why either of two supposedly bit perfect transmission protocols should sound different. Apologies if I’m asking you to repeat what you’ve said elsewhere Kenneth, but how would you describe the differences you are hearing ?
