Roon search sucking... Please provide examples

With this specific case I see what @Jez sees. Not what you see. So I wonder how many other cases are like this? So I get this on the Composition page:

I don’t know why I have the album this is on in my library but I do (from Qobuz). Maybe I accidently favorited it.

But if I go to the composition tab on Stephen Cleobury’s page I get this:

The extra Hymns come from an album on Qobuz that is not in my library

It is starting to get a bit silly because I wouldn’t consider poor old Stephen Cleobury a composer but roon are asking for test cases and this does seem to throw up quite a few annoying niggles.

As Jez has realised - I am talking about a different Compositions tab - the tab on the Artist/Composer page - not the Compositions option in the main Navigation menu - that takes you to the Compositions Browser, which is strictly a view of your Library…

Ok. We have cross-posted. But really, this is even more confusing than I thought I simply did not know that depending on what composition tab you click you get completely different views. Why would anyone think that?

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… and how would you find those things where he is attributed as a Conductor, or as an Arranger … there’s all this potentially wonderful and rich metadata that you can’t fully exploit.

… and look what happens when you just type “Cleo” into the search box. Mike Rutherford is the the third suggestion. Why?

It seems clear enough to me; one is the Compositions Browser for My Library and the other is the Compositions tab for a Composer (which looks beyond my library, as it should)…

…but this is now getting somewhat off-topic.

I don’t think it is particularly off-topic as it would appear that your search starting point is going to determine your search results. I certainly would not have guessed that the functioning of roon composition search was only understood by 1 out of 3 people.

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This is not about Search - this is about browsing.

All this started because a Search result miscategorised a person as a Composer instead of an Artist - and that is the relevant fact for this thread. Let’s stop this side-discussion now, please (in this thread - if you want to take it elsewhere, we can open a new thread on it).

Please keep workarounds out of this thread. It only makes it confusing.

Keep it on “Search sucking” giving examples and writing about it sucking.

Workarounds like going via composition, or filter or whatever, are great for another thread.

Just loads of “sucking” examples. Otherwise should the Roonies read this thread, they might get confused and loose interest.

Thanks!

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Fair point. There probably should be a support thread for people who want to find stuff and can’t and would like some help, and a different thread for those who want to help Roon fix the issues with the search box but expect little feedback.

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You are absolutely right! I think it is sufficient for me to report that felt 80% or more search results from Roon search suck! Why give examples when it is clear that a one dimensional unstructured search has no way to find what one would like to find. It’s the Google approach telling the search has found 1’346’767 results and shows 20 of them. This can’t be for a serious search function. Fiddling on examples will not improve it. Roon needs to make search structured, multidimensional to give value to the music aficionado.

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You are absolutely right.

Sadly Roon has repeatedly stated that structured, parametrized (or as you put it: multidimensional) search is not in the cards.

Why I don’t know.

I don’t know if someone has already posted this example but I have just had a very frustrating time doing a search on “Wintereise”. In Qobuz I get the expected Schubert song cycle:

In roon I know I have a lot of Wintereise but I just get this:

So then I try “Schubert Wintereise” to see if I have any better luck but it is just the same with some more “Schubert” references but the same very limited “Wintereise”.

Eventually I work out that I have miss-spelt “Wintereise”, There are two “r’s” and it should be “Winterreise”. In fact the only reason I get the top result in the roon screen-shot above is that it has also been miss-spelt in metadata (not my library) and is in fact some avant-garde electronic arrangement I wasn’t interested in any way.

So when I type “Winterresise” I get the expected search results:

I find this a lot, that roon search is very unforgiving of typo’s and miss-spellings where as that is not the case with search engines with other music search interfaces I interact with. It is not just Classical music. I seek out mostly French and International pop music and this can be painful in roon as I make frequent spelling mistakes whereas it is much easier in the Qobuz app.

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Problem is that Roon is trying to reinvent the wheel. Or rather that someone within Roon probably thought it would be a good idea to reinvent the wheel.

The problem you describe, @Tony_Casey , is one of the oldest pitfalls of search engines. It’s also one that is solved by thousands of variations on the same algorithm. Most DBMS’s and query languages have a %LIKE% operator or command.

Even if there isn’t a %LIKE% operator, it isn’t all that difficult to write one, since I know of no high level programming languages that don’t give a programmer the means to do string comparisons.

Searching music data is not akin to searching the internet. Compared to the internet, the dataset Roon has to search is small and in any case finite for practical purposes.

Even given that the data Roon uses comes in different and probably badly structured forms, Roon still has to define relationships between the data in order for Roon to work. This means that there is a fixed relationship definition. Otherwise the software wouldn’t be able to distinguish between an album title and a track title, between a performer and a composer and so on.

One of the old school approaches is to generate a keyword list from all the different relations and if need be to build a relationship table for the keywords to be linked to other qualifiers. It’s not because it’s old school that it’s an antiquated approach.

On the contrary, it’s simple, reliable, easily updated and with today’s processing power it’s fast.
It’s also a solution for all the different spellings of classical composer’s names like Tschaikofsky, Chaikovski, Tshaikovski and the like.

It’s just not flashy. Neither is the wheel, but we haven’t found a better solution for that either.

We’re talking search and retrieve, not mousetraps.

Another aspect that is sorely neglected in the Roon approach is result sorting. It’s all good and well to posit a context aware search, but it will not work without context. Deriving a context from user behaviour is a pipe dream in my opinion. This approach presumes a user who never deviates from habit and never explores. It also doesn’t take into account that the software might be used by different users in a household with differing tastes and habits which would result in at least three behaviour patterns: one for each individual user and one (compromising) behaviour pattern for shared listening.

So by definition the context aware approach is doomed from the start because the context should be defined by the user, not by the software. This is so obvious to me that I despair whenever I look at the jumble Roon search returns.

There is no rhyme or reason.

Simply ordering the results by closest match to search string and then sorting alphabetically (which is the standard operating practice in any good unstructured search) would greatly improve the results.

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The search box drop down confuses me. I don’t know whether it worth looking at or not. I have a recording of the Bach Cello Suites by David Watkin in my library. If I search for “Bach Watkin” the search drop down doesn’t contain that as a suggestion.

But if I search for “Watkin Bach” the search drop down is spot on.

Both ways I get the recording I want as the top choice. Could someone from Roon say whether there is an optimum way to order search terms to get the best out of the search box drop down?

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I agree - I don’t see the point in having an ‘autocomplete’ box in the ‘search field’ unless the ‘autocomplete’ thing pre-empts the search results. They are either different logics or the same thing. Right now I think they are different logics.

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I suspect flawed treatment of the search string.

If I were to hazard a guess, I’d say the search string is split in its substrings and a search is performed for each individual substring.

I suppose the results are aggregated and ordered first by appearance of the first substring, then the second and so on, where the first substring is treated as indispensible and the subsequent strings are treated as “added bonuses”.

This would explain the behaviour shown in Roon search.

A very strange approach and not at all effective.

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Just wanted to add my voice to the disappointment with the magnifying glass search. If I type the exact name of a song, it rarely finds it. Latest example:

Typing “Party All the Time” (to get to Eddie Murphy’s song of the same name, which is stored in my local library), the top result is a compilation(?) that has it on Tidal and the others are not close. When I hit Return to get to the Search Results, the top result is a Black Eyed Peas track (fine, it has the same name), but looking at the Album and Track results, it is no where to be found. If I click More on Albums, it is the 7th result. In the Track More button, about 25 results down is that compilation version from Tidal, right below it the Eddie Murphy version from Tidal, but my file is never found in track search.

This is a terrible experience. I wish it would prioritize my local music more and correctly display tracks that I have in the track search result. I often just rely on the filter approach to find things now.

Result 7 is the matched single with only 1 track on it: Party All The Time. It is a local file and even in playlists. Note, a cover version of it is actually the top result :face_with_monocle:

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Beyond the See must be Booby Darins most famous song? Roon doesn’t think so nor does it find it with the track by anybody else which I would at least expect it to do.

I get hit only by adding Bobby Darin.

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Ok here is another example of the new feature they added, for the quick find failing. You can see the artist I want briefly pop up then Roon looses it completely.

Where did you go Hazel?

Oh here you are in Qobuz !!!

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