Hi
Will Roon provide any of the following?
Web based service -
To allow access to the Roon central database - this might be a reference tool or might have information about the subscribers collection. It could also take a Tidal stream and provide a Roon UI. (not sure how technically possible this would be!)
Remote access - Streaming access from a Roon core to a remote endpoint via WAN
Offline mode: - Sync some files for offline use, with the Roon data included too.
Cheers
Tom
The Roon technology will gradually migrate towards the cloud over time, since that’s where everything is going to end up. It’s not a huge architectural leap to imagine running the Roon “core” in the cloud, with remotes and endpoints in various locations.
The short answer to “why not now” is that hardware, internet speeds and pricing models, and content delivery technologies just aren’t there yet to make a great user experience. @danny goes into more detail on that topic here.
We are not pointed in the direction of becoming a reference tool and when designing product, we sometimes haveto remind ourselves that “Roon is not a music encyclopedia”. What we mean by this is: Roon is focused on a great browsing and listening experience in context of a set of playable content, not becoming allmusic.com.
Getting content from where it is to where you are is one of the most challenging “plumbing” problems in this space, but we intend to solve it. Remote endpoints and offline mode are a possible solution, but not the only way.
It could also take a Tidal stream and provide a Roon UI. (not sure how technically possible this would be!)
This we will do. Your instincts are good on the difficulty level–it’s not a simple thing to pull off 
.
There are so many questions that I could follow up with, but will leave until this subject is more pertinent. One thing that did come to mind though is whether Roon keeps its own master database which is shared with its subscribers or whether the subscribers build up their own databases from external sources using the Roon technologies.
It’s the former. We have a central database that models all of the music in the world, and the app functions as a very smart browser driven by that data.
Hi Brian,
I stumbled on this very old thread. It was useful for me as I stand at the edge of my one year renewal vs lifetime.
Can you point me to other links/resources that would describe to me Roon’s thoughts on three issues which must be of common concern… long term, how can I:
Essentially my delemna is very simple. If my library is gradually migrating from vinyl to virtual, and you are my window… I don’t want to invest years of time only to 1) have limited ability to access my library where I am, when I want and 2) find myself with no library as natural consolidation in the industry occurs.
I’m hoping to view you guys as the trusted keeper of my virtual library, one step removed from the actual content providers, so that if they go… you guys help me find another way to legally access those copyrights. My library on your service becomes my trusted (& organized) portal to the world of virtual albums/copyrights.
Those of us who are Netflixers or Hulu-ers, or what have you, have already learned the hard way that a virtual library is not permanent… one’s collection of movies can change when license agreements are renewed/abandoned/renegotiated.
This would be far more devastating in a music environment and I don’t particularly want to pay twice (streaming + vinyl/download/CD) for every album I build into my library.
Great… thanks!
And just to add. I imagine the issue would be further complicated if one moved. Netflix canada for example having a different library than Netflix USA.
If Roon can help insulate us from these copyright annoyances that come from the digital age, it would become so much more helpful. Example: a guy in NYC moves to London and all of a sudden 50% of his library becomes inaccessible…
But in comes Roon to save the day. He signs up for a new streaming service that had 95% of his content and Roon re-integrates/cross-references it into his library.
Perhaps this isn’t an issue with Tidal being international (? not sure ?), but you get the point… I can foresee so many instances where I need Roon to protect my library so that I don’t have to rebuild it from scratch when someone in the industry decides to change a licensing agreement.
All that for $119!
You don’t think your expectations are a little high do you?
The only way to be sure you have an album “for life” is to have a physical copy or on a hard drive. I’d be very surprised if Roon can promise otherwise.
SJB
Really?
I’m referring to the “lifetime” subscription (not the $120/year) and highlighting a very real potential limitation.
At the very heart of Roon, is the potential to not have to rebuild-reauthor-reorganize your library database if the location of those virtual files changes. I agree with you that “physical copies” were the only way, but a whole new generation isn’t archiving that way and I presumed that was part of the value proposition here? And anyway, MY physical copies are vinyl.
I mean surely the GUI is ahead of Tidal and iTunes, but isn’t the heart of the value proposition that you can finally build your “library” (once and for all) that integrates both your purchased AND licensed copies of music?
No, I don’t think my expectations are that high (perhaps yours are low?). I’m not asking Roon to pay my Tidal or XYZ streaming service subscription. Of course I’m going to be doing that myself. All I’m asking for is that Roon 1) is building in a little redundancy to their database and 2) is building in ways to make our library a little more portable (outside of WiFi or perhaps to withstand a move to another country where maybe a different streaming service is the only option).
Some of the basics of what I’m asking I’m sure are already build into Roon. It already chooses the highest quality version of a song. As they build streaming partners, why not allow us to replace our broken Tidal links with Deezer links (or whatever) if our subscriber relationships change or are changed for us?
Re-reading your note again.
To be clear, I’m not asking for any guarantee. But presently there is only one streaming service which forms one of the largest value propositions for Roon.
If we all go about adding 100, 200, 500 new albums to our library due to the awesome music discovery features of Roon, what happens if Tidal is gone? I would want Roon to point me to whatever streaming service is now providing that content without me having to rebuild my database an album at a time.
And if there is no such (partnered) streaming service, I want to Roon to help me realize that and find other legit ways of acquiring those digital rights. (i.e., the Tidal album you had is gone, cuz Tidal changed its license agreement… but that album is available to stream through X, or for purchase in regular resolution at Y, or in high def at Z)… and by the way, here is the list of all of the other albums songs you’ve lost and where you might replace them.
[quote=“Adam_B, post:10, topic:242”]
which forms one of the largest value propositions for Roon.
[/quote]to you perhaps, but for those among us with large physical libraries of CD’s that have been ripped or high res downloads that have been purchased the value proposition does not necessarily lie in streaming.
Whilst Roon could likely be enhanced to isolate that part of a virtual library to which you lose access if moving or licensing arrangements of content providers change, it cannot guarantee that another streaming service will have the content. If another streaming service were integrated I’d have thought it’d be feasible to match your virtual library with the content provided by other integrated streaming services. At present though, there’s only Tidal so it’s kinda moot.
If you cherish some music, buy it or make needledrops of your vinyl and add them to Roon - that way you’re not dependent on the vagaries of a music industry with highly complex and antiquated licensing models that have never had the consumer in mind and probably never will.
to you perhaps, but for those among us with large physical libraries of CD’s that have been ripped or high res downloads that have been purchased the value proposition does not necessarily lie in streaming.
Yes… to me. If that was unclear I’m clearly asking with self interest. This is a feature I’m curious about. I recognize you may enjoy other aspects of Roon. I also purchase plenty of music and Roon helps me with a large library of FLAC, but going forward I’d like to purchase vinyl and use streaming for digital. From what I’ve read, there is a growing number of people who are building large libraries in streaming services as well. They might also be interested in an integrated library that helps them navigate what are bound to be changing times in the online streaming industry.
Whilst Roon could likely be enhanced to isolate that part of a virtual library to which you lose access if moving or licensing arrangements of content providers change, it cannot guarantee that another streaming service will have the content. If another streaming service were integrated I’d have thought it’d be feasible to match your virtual library with the content provided by other integrated streaming services. At present though, there’s only Tidal so it’s kinda moot.
Ok, you clearly get my point… and again I didn’t use the word guarantee. I’m just concerned in a portion of my library disappearing some day overnight. This could be a value add that would cost little… it might even generate revenues/royalties for whichever content provider Roon chooses to partner with. There is only one Tidal, true… and long may they reign. But that’s a big part of my concern. Tidal is posting losses, rumors of sales to Apple, etc. It’s a big risk and I’d like to hear ROON’s thoughts on this issue given it is a tightly integrated part of their business model.
If you cherish some music, buy it or make needledrops of your vinyl and add them to Roon - that way you’re not dependent on the vagaries of a music industry with highly complex and antiquated licensing models that have never had
As I said… I do buy plenty of music, perhaps not necessarily the way that you do. Your point about the music industry not necessarily having the consumer in mind rings true to me. I fully expect anyone who invests exclusively in streaming to see it one day disappear in favor of something else. If that happens there will be many whose “library” disappears… by then perhaps a whole decade of music becomes inaccessible.
Roon is a very rich database and each user makes it their own. My list/catalogue of music is MY LIST, not Tidals or Spotify’s or iTunes’ for that matter. I see a huge potential value add in Roon helping us insulate our libraries from the “vagaries of the music industry” as you put it… we all know how long it takes to get our catalogue the way we like it, essentially that is a big part of what Roon is selling.
This may not be the right place for me to have brought this up… perhaps that’s why you guys are trying to talk me out of it? But I brought it up here because it seemed to fit with the idea of accessing one’s Roon catalogue/library remotely.
Very interesting discussion (@Adam_B points 2 & 3 ).
IMHO the real difficult point is not on the Roon software and database side.
It is, for the music industry and streaming services, how to identify audio ressources (tracks, albums) with shared universal identifiers and how to provide minimum interoperability between services (perhaps as a legal requirement ?).
In the book industry ISBN mechanism is widely used. In the music industry ISRC are not so much …
My library real “value” is not only to access the audio media but almost to preserve my personal choices, organization and enrichments (added releases, playlist, favorites, tagging etc).
If such an UID mechanism and services interoperability would be largely adopted, quite possible, if not easy, for Roon to provide software automatic mechanism to preserve (backup) and migrate “virtual” music libraries with personal enrichments included.
However, today, as it is, virtual libraries backup and migration are not so easy, accurate and robust because only metadata and specific services IDs are used to identify audio media. So in case TIDAL (for example) disappears i think i would have a lot of time to spend rebuilding my library (see existing, but limited in this context, Roon “export to EXCEL function”). I agree with @Sloop_John_B, it’s my risk !
Interested to know Roonlabs point of view on this topic.
I don’t think it’s a case of trying to talk anyone out of something, your view is clearly as valid as mine.
My view is that Tidal is inherently risky, I have already have had an album I saved to my Tidal library disappear form Tidal.
Tidal is a streaming service and all such services will have such a risk.
When I back-up my database I also export a list of my Tidal albums so that if the unthinkable happens I at least have a list to work off.
Are Roon aware of all this, of course they are, it’s mentioned on many posts.
Would they like a second streaming service on board? Is the Pope a catholic?
The question is as I see it about how much time effort and money Roon should put into “protecting” our Tidal collection.
From my perspective, there are many areas I’d like to see prioritised ahead of what may be effectively tilting at windmills. Better metadata and ability to edit, DSP, playlists, better focus options particularly on history to name but a few.
From my perspective building up a Tidal Library is at the users risk, Roon just lets you navigate this library as brilliantly as it allows navigation of physical files.
Roon do read the fora and they plan ahead for what people ask for so if I see a request that I think is a bit OTT,it’s just as valid for me to express a counter argument as it is for you to express your opinion in the first place.
The fact these discussions take place at all says a lot for Roon.
SJB
Thanks for your thoughts Volpone.
Yes, clearly at this point building our library in Tidal via Roon, is at our risk. To a degree building a our physical library in Roon was/is also a risk… just as it is to use iTunes, JRiver or anything else.
I agree with you that the user information that we create (playlists, play counts, favorites, etc) is part of the richness of our experience and (if it is technically possible?) Roon would have an opportunity to help us maintain that richness whether our hard-drive dies out or our music service becomes extinct.
That’s why the disclosed plans to integrate Roon in the cloud make sense. If our individual index of music + non-unique metadata + personal metadata all lives there, then we are moving in the direction of a semi-permanent, personalized library that could be independent of where the actual music file lives.
Hard drive dies? Dog ate your backup? No worries… re-rip your files, point Roon to the new location and it will do its best to reapply the metadata (theirs and yours) of what you’ve built.
Tidal dies? Pay a subscription to whatever new service Roon has negotiated with and it will also do it’s best to seek out analogous files (perhaps using ISRC?) and re-index to your library/metadata.
In a way this is analogous to dealing with “[!]” in iTunes, just adding remote (streamed) files as well.
Gotcha…
So I had to remind myself of the front page of Roon’s website… what are the main features they are selling. And in order from top of page to bottom, they are:
It sounds like you found Roon in a journey to fix 1 & 2… a better iTunes or whatever it was you were using before. It sounds also like these were the first two features Roon offered if one goes back as far as the Sooloos days, so it makes sense that there is a huge user base that will prioritize them.
Those things hooked me too… but if I’m honest, I came here from Sonos --> Bluesound --> on a path to find a better way to achieve 4 from the comfort of an iPad. When I realized 3 was even possible (a truly integrated library is not possible on Sonos/Bluesound) AND I’d get the benefits of 1&2, I was hooked.
It might not be your cup of tea, but don’t underestimate the draw of #3. Roon clearly sees this as a key value driver, or else A) It wouldn’t feature on the website, B) “Add to My Library” wouldn’t be such a prominent feature, and C) even the Roon setup Wizard encourages you to add “essential” albums from Tidal to your collection.
[quote=“Adam_B, post:16, topic:242”]
Hard drive dies? Dog ate your backup? No worries… re-rip your files
[/quote]Re-Ripping my files would be the stuff that nightmares are made of. I have two rotating backups one onsite and one off site… so I can sleep at night. Phewwwwwwww.
I hear you… we’re all trying to get to the same place in that regard.
Yes, but your own local physical medias (files, CD, vinyls) and it is your responsabilty to preserve it (backups etc …). With streaming services it’s only an hyperlink, an ID, with no meaning if the service collapse.
[quote=“Adam_B, post:16, topic:242”]
That’s why the disclosed plans to integrate Roon in the cloud make sense. If our individual index of music + non-unique metadata + personal metadata all lives there, then we are moving in the direction of a semi-permanent, personalized library that could be independent of where the actual music file lives.[/quote]
Yes but even if “in the cloud”, if the streaming service collapse, no joy … only a quite useless list with no interoperability with an alternate service if, as it is today, there is no common ID’s adoption.
[quote=“Adam_B, post:16, topic:242”]
Tidal dies? Pay a subscription to whatever new service Roon has negotiated with and it will also do it’s best to seek out analogous files (perhaps using ISRC?) and re-index to your library/metadata.[/quote] For collectors, and classical music i’m afraid there is no automatism to migrate or rebuild libraries and than i wouldn’t be happy with “analogous files”.
I’m sure Roon will move to the cloud when it will be technically feasible, but streaming services interoperability will remain an issue until ISRC (or anything else) is widely adopted.
Volpone… perhaps a question for Roon. But are you saying that even with Tidal, where Roon has a view into their back-end… that they wouldn’t know the ISRC? If they know the ISRC couldn’t they re-index the ISRC and re-link the hyperlink from your database to the new streaming service?
Or the ISRC is not unique enough (and so multiple “wrong” recordings could be linked)? Or that it is too unique (and therefore unlikely to find that exact ID on a third parties’ streaming service)?