Slow Mozart (ref#G467ND)

I just tried your suggestion.

I deleted Disc number 200, copied it back to a different folder, reanalysed it through Roon. Like you, I got the “Mozart 225: The New Complete Edition”, Various Artists, Disk 200, the 1000+ credits.See below

Unfortunately, this did not fix the problem. I still have around 30 seconds to load this album, and about the same to start a track…i.e., like the rest of the Mozart 225 collection.

The non-Mozart 225 albums in the Roon collection load almost instantly. In brief, nothing has changed.

The answer would seem to be to split the discs and group as I described above . It certainly worked fine for me .

This is a monster set with monster credits , every disc is trying to search the set and load the credits as opposed to loading everything at once .

Roon cannot handle this set it appears except in it’s volume form, there are 4000 tracks involved and however many credits.

Please try my suggestion I think you will work, if not there is no further action I can suggest .

I will if in the next few weeks I do not see another solution. It would involve undoing all my edits on the collection. Thank you very much for your help

Hi @Antonio_Ballesteros,

We unfortunately don’t have any additional solutions to offer at this time. I do see that @Mike_O_Neill has some excellent suggestions listed, thank you Mike!

You have my apologies, Antonio.

I think the devs working on box sets improvements may find it useful to work with this set. To my knowledge it’s the biggest CD count I have come across that has not been split to “bite size volumes” Hence the split to “bundles” as Decca called it

A while back it was found to tripping up the search work that Z ? Was working on, that too was helped by making Volumes or bundles

I think I have finally identified the likely cause of this problem, and I have also found a workaround, which I have been testing with positive results during the last couple of days. Mike’s input was essential and our discussion put me on the right track.

I have evidence showing that the cause of the problem is the large number of credits assigned by Roon to each of the albums in the Mozart 225 set: 1215, and how Roon handles these credits. This had been already mentioned in this thread. The presence of these many credits attached to each album appear to heavily impact Roon performance. I could imagine that perhaps it is Roon trying to establish links for the 1215 credits across the 200 albums of the Mozart set whenever you open one of these.

In any case, manually deleting the credits in the album edit window does not solve the problem. This is likely due to the fact that Roon continues to keep track of those credits after deletion (they appear as “removed” in the album screen).

On the other hand, how the albums are physically grouped in folders or organised as separate albums or in collections does not directly impact performance. Nevertheless there can be an indirect effect when albums are put in different sets, as Mike rightly suggested. The reason would be that, based on different sets, Roon can apply different credits to the albums. More on this later.

I had hyphotesized that reducing the number of credits in the Mozart 225 set albums to a more reasonable figure could eliminate the performance issues. But how could this be done, as manually deleting the credits in Roon does not have the desired effect?

The answer was to “identify” each album again in Roon (Album editor / Album options / Identify album), and change the source that Roon uses to obtain its metadata. Luckily, the Mozart 225 set being a compilation, many albums preexisted and could be used in this way for identification. Moreover, DG/Decca had published some time ago the same content split in smaller collections, for downolad. Separate sets existed for Complete Quartets, Complete Symphonies, Early Operas, Serenades & Divertimenti, and the like, abvailable to be used as source for identification in Roon.

See the image below. A CD of the Mozart 225 set containing Mozart’s string quartets is currently getting its metadata from “Mozart 225: The New Complete Edition” (See the message “This is the metadata that is currently being used for This album”). But when “identifying” it again in Roon, I can switch the source, for example, to “Mozart: the String quartets” by the Hagen, or “Mozart 225: Complete Quartets”, which surely will have fewer credits than the Mozart 225.

And indeed, by selecting “Mozart: 225 Complete Quartets”, the number of credits for this album are reduced from the initial 1215 to a much more manageable 66.

Voilà. All the performance issues are gone for each of the albums in the 225 set that I have modified as described above. Until now, I have identified again with this process about 40 albums. All of them load, play, or open for editing without delay.

I have kept all the CDs in the Mozart 225 set as individual albums or small multidisc albums (an opera, for example), just like before, as this greatly facilitates search and use. Only in one case I used a new set (the complete Symphonies). No difference, performance is good all across.

Identifying the albums again has modified the title I had given to them, and probably also some metadata. But I am happy with the result, obviously.

Perhaps having a huge album with all the 200 CDs together in it and only one set of 1215 metadata, as Mike suggested, could also improve Roon performance. But I did not feel like trying it, as it did not seem the kind of organisation I wanted to use. Luckily, I found another way.

I intend to continue down this path to identify again the full collection. As the number of albums still identified according to the big Mozart set goes down, I will recheck performance, to see, for example, what happens when only 50, 20 or 10 albums are left still with the 1215 metadata. I imagine that as the number of albums with the full 1215 metadata diminish, performance when handling them should improve.

It has been an interesting excercise. As Mike said, if Roon developers are looking now into dealing with sets, this one is probably the most challenging they can find to test their solutions.

There are perhaps some lessons to be learned from this. But this can be left for another post.

Thanks to both of you

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Exactly what I experienced with similarly sized boxsets and other publications with lots of references, particularly classical samplers.

I have no detailed knowledge about roon handling its internal database, but I have the feeling that with several browsing operations such as opening an artist’s or composer´s page, compiling track or composition lists and alike, roon has to search all affected database entities (such as bios and wiki texts) and crawl everything to find matches. That is computing-intense.

Are these 1215 credits coming from roon´s internal sources, or are they partly originating from local metadata? Do they all make sense? My experience is that many of these boxsets when being ripped create a pile of metagarbage, e.g. several performer´s names in different combination as one credit. I would recommend to re-tag those albums using MusicBrainz metadata. Maybe it might be even helpful to delete all tags which are not relevant for roon´s links (such as recording engineer or alike).

They are coming from Roon, as far as I can tell. Or at least I cannot believe they are embedded in each track file.

They are totally useless, of course. In a set like this, each of the performers with any role in any of the 200 CDs will show as a credit in every CD in that set. Not only is this useless, but also misleading and toxic for the library, making search basically meaningless.

For example, for a particular piano CD in the Mozart 225 set performed by Mitsuko Uchida, you will see as credits all the orchestras, conductors, string quartets, flute players, violin players, bassoon players, trios, piano players, libretists, plus engineers, liner notes authors, and so on, which appear in the set, even once…Conversely, this Uchida CD will show up whenever you look in Roon for, let’s say, Neville Marriner, or Rene Jacobs, or the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, or 1000+ more individuals and groups.

Roon considers the 200 CD set as a unit, and acts according to this assumption.

I can understand the difficulty of setting the correct metadata for classical music CD boxes. It may be even impossible in practical terms, or not worth it.

But it would be nice, and perhaps not too difficult to implement, to provide any interested user with a user-friendly way to edit those credits. For example, by facilitating selection of multiple items. Right now, you have to check each box next to each credit, one by one. For example, for this 200 CDs Mozart set, you would need to click 1200 times next to each of the 1200 credit checkboxes to be able to get rid of them. And even like that, as I said, the credits somehow remain there, as “removed credits”, weighing on Roon performance…Not the greatest way to do it.

I hope Roon developers will one day take care of this. I believe even a small modification could go a long way in solving this kind of issues

Maybe software like MP3tag could clarify this by looking at particular tracks and their tags. It might be possible that roon has a lot of credits and the local files are adding tags on top creating an even bigger pile of credits.

I fully understand that in a 200disc+ boxset that is useless and misleading. But roon´s concept of browsing and creating links was originally meant for single albums (not even classical) and the idea ´leave no performer behind´ I find useful in most of cases, even classical samplers.

If you want to have a part of a big boxset handled as an album of its own, maybe you would better manually identify it as the original release? That’s what I did with the 100disc box of Verdi, and actually I like having every opera as a separated album.

I guess manual editing of credits would mean a lot of work either way, cannot imagine that to be user-friendly. And it has the downside that you might loose links from one of the artist to the set which for composers would be really a shame.

Firstly I am glad you found a way around the “mess”, we are hoping that a long dedicated look at Box Set design will give Roon a really slick method of negotiating this type of box (stated as in the dev stage and coming soon (define soon) . After all the “Complete Recordings of X on DG” type boxes are a very cost effective way of building a library , Brendel (114 CD) worked out at less than $2 a disc, but is a nightmare to negotiate unless you know where individual works lie in the disc structure.

Just a couple of final comments and then we can let the sleeping dog have a rest :smiling_imp: :sunglasses:

This is the base problem, the track compositions of this set (and equally the later Bach 333 & Beethoven sets ) are comprised of a mixture of all Decca, Philips & DG artists and is , contrary to what you indicate , will not actually be found as a previous individual release . For example one disc is Uchida and Brendel playing piano sonatas, certainly never released as such.

It was a selling point when it was released since they did not depend on one artist only for say the Piano Sonatas (as in the older 1989 set where each volume was a previously released box set) they chose what they believed was the BEST recording in their catalogue and mixed and matched accordingly. Along with that they added historic and period instrument duplicates Hence they did not pick say Uchida for sonatas , Brendel for Concertos etc. Obviously things like operas are a set rather than individual tracks , so they may ID OK as the original release.

As Roon ID’s , however it does it, the best fit is a single disc from a 200 set so it ID as this disc rather than do nothing (hence the title change) , in doing so it associates the credits of the whole box to that one disc. The more you split the more single disc with monster credits you create . Hence my suggestion to go for the Bundles , as you saw with the string quartets

Not unless you or someone put them there , Roon does NOT write to your files , the whole point of the Roon db is that this kind of data is stored there

As above this is not always or even often possible with a set like this , except as I mentioned for individual opera sets or large multi disc works (not many beyond the operas)

I am hoping for this (taken from my JRiver legacy library) … There are 114 sub discs , arranged like this

I never said or implied that Roon wrote to the files. Only that it assigns the 1000+ credits to the every cd of the set in its own database, which of course is where the problem comes from.

From Roon’s point of view you are probably right. But trying to search for a specific work in that album with hundreds upon hundreds of them is likely to be a nightmare.

Isn’t that what Focus is used for? E.g.:

Yes Between Focus and Filter I agree you get most of what you want.

This box is 200 CD and 4000 tracks , its probably the worst case scenario, but Antonio seems to have devised his own way around it !!

@Antonio_Ballesteros , as Geoff suggest you should now investigate Focus as a means of getting to individual compositions

I can confirm now that I have been finally able to solve the significant performance issues affecting my 200 CD Mozart 225 Complete Edition under Roon, following the ideas in my link Slow Mozart (ref#G467ND) - #28 by Antonio_Ballesteros . These ideas were born from a discussion of contributions by other posters. This experience could provide lessons for the future.

As an unexpected additional benefit, my whole Roon library has also become more responsive. There is no longer trace of the low-to-moderate levels of slughisness that I sometimes experienced even outside the Mozart collection, for example, loading the full Roon library or viewing all the albums, and which I had previously attributed to general performance issues in Roon.

The root of the problem was indeed the humongous number of credits (1200+) that Roon had assigned to most of the 200 CDs in the Mozart 225 Complete Edition, which I had identified as separate CDs when analysing them (for reasons that are not worth addressing here).

A few days ago I started identifying again, one by one, each of the CDs in the collection (except those which were already identified outside as specific operas, concertos, and the like), but this time choosing as a source, instead of the “Mozart 225: The Complete Edition”, with its 1200+ credits for each album, other sets that contained fewer credits (perhaps 10, or 60 or 100). I was very lucky that DG/Decca have published the same collection in smaller sets (Duos, Quartets, Symphonies, and so on), so using these as source was straightforward in most cases.

The change in the times loading a disc, starting play, restarting a track, and so on went down from 20-40 seconds, or 1 minute, or more, to 2 or 3 seconds for each of the CDs I re-identified in this way.

I started also recording Roon performance with the CDs in the Mozart collection that were pending re-identification, to see if the reduction in the total number of CDs with the 1200+ credits affected the performance of the non re-identified CDs. The hypothesis was that as the total number of CDs in the collection still with 1200 credits diminished, their performance would improve even before re-identification.

The data on loading times confirmed this:

  • 175 CDs with 1200+ credits each (starting point): loading time for each was between 20 and 40 seconds most of the time ( Slow Mozart (ref#G467ND) - #6 by Antonio_Ballesteros )

  • 85 CDs remaining with 1200+ credits: Loading time between 12-14 seconds

  • 65 CDs remaining with 1200+ credits: loading time between 9-10 seconds

  • 35 CDs remaining with 1200+ credits: loading time between 7-8 secs

  • 25 CDs remaining with 1200+ credits: loading time less than 5 secs

As I said, these loading times refer only to the CDs who had not been re-identified. The loading times for the re-identified CDs was almost instantaneous, 1 or 2 seconds.

In conclusion, Roon performance appears to be impacted by the product of the number of credits in one given CD set x number of albums in that set, whenever these albums are identified by Roon as individual entities, and not as a multidisc album.

In a case as extreme as this, with 1200 credits x 200 CDs, the result is unacceptably low performance even from a relatively powerful device, as is the Roon +.

Such performance issues are mostly concentrated in the Mozart 225 collection itself. However, they are not limited to it, but also can overflow to the whole of the Roon library.

Roon perhaps should reflect about how best handling situations like this, which can appear particularly in the ever bigger and more widespread classical music sets. Some suggestions for this in a later post.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread with their valuable views

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I tried, to no avail. It just takes too much time

No offence but that was my suggestion many (11) days ago, I had already seen that improvement , the Bundled version presumably has the credits only for that specific bundle , hence the improvement !!

That said I am glad you are eventually happy , box sets of this size are fortunately very few and far between and often “volumed” as a result

Indeed. I can imagine Music Brainz is just using the split Mozart edition that DG/Decca published for the downloadable version of the Mozart 225 Complete Edition.

Here is most of the Mozart 225 collection as appears in Tidal, for example,

An easy conclusion is that Roon performance is affected by the product of (Nr. Credits in a set of albums) x (Nr of albums including them). Perhaps something could be done.

Thinking credits for classical sets and boxes, I have often found too many credits in them, which make those credits perfectly useless. Let’s say a 60 CD Leonard Bernstein box for his DG period. How many credits can it include for composers? 100? 150? If I am looking for Berlioz in my library based on album credits, it will show all those Bernstein’s CDs…If I look in the credits page of a CD, I will see 200…

I think Roon could perhaps limit the number of album credits in multi-album sets, or give an option or a warning to exclude them during import. Or at least allow the user to easily delete them. Track credits would remain, of course, and they don’t create problems, contrary to these album credits.

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It is exactly what I have been experiencing with several multi-disc albums or in general with albums having a zillion of credits and references. Having too many of them is simply slowing roon down.

I have capped the number of operas, oratorios and classical boxsets in my core library to just over 600 albums in order to prevent this from happening. Maybe one day there will be a workaround.

Certainly true, and for unknown reasons even standard releases of subgenres of classical music tend to come with a ridiculous amount of credits.

Thanks for your detective work anyways!

My understanding is that Box Sets was one of the areas to be addressed after the Harman acquisition , it was mentioned alongside folder browsing which has already happened.

So any ideas on box handling would be good as a guide to the devs who are working on this. Mozart 225 has already been highlighted before @Antonio_Ballesteros commented . It was tripping up the work on the Search Improvements which are ongoing