Solve the library/non-library conundrum and all the complexities it creates for tagging, focus, playlists etc

I appreciate all of the discussion here. Like I said before, we are working actively on this, and as @Francois_De_Heel pointed out, it is complex.

The decisions about how a lot of this stuff works were made 10+ years ago when the world was a very different place, and integrating streaming services into Roon didn’t happen until halfway into that period. Since then, this has become a major portion of Roon’s value proposition, but the way the system works has suffered from evolving incrementally to our users’ needs instead of being designed with a clear vision in mind.

There’s nothing nice about re-thinking basic facts about a product and then going to the thousand places that need to be adjusted and harmonizing them around the new way of operating. Doing this to a functioning product with a large user base that includes a lot of people resistant to change presents additional challenges–but we are working on it.

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Thanks @brian for your response. I think that basically, we are all big fans… who - admittedly - sometimes become impatient. I guess it would not be possible to give us some idea of what would be feasible in the short run (1.9? 2.0?) in terms of making it at least workable to enjoy the myriad of possibilities Roon (not yet) offers for playlist/Tidal/Qobuz users? And when maybe some more fundamentally re-thought database/library/non-library structure can be expected (3.0?)

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@Brian, I would strongly recommend you do some kind of focus groups with Roon users, involving screen sharing, so you can see use cases that seem to be very closely held by various users but may not be apparent to you and your colleagues, or may not come through via these discussion forums.

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Sorry, I can’t get more specific about roadmap/timing.

This is a good idea, @mike

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I would gladly participate if it would help get it fixed

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@brian I am sure there are reasons why you can’t be more specific about roadmap/timing… However… Five years ago (!), Roon admitted that functionality for playlist users is weak and asked the community about its ideas: We want your ideas for Playlists!
I don’t have the impression that this issue has really been addressed since then… Or maybe it has, but Roon is still not delivering on promises like “easy to find exactly what you’re looking for”, “combine music files and streaming content in your playlists, or use tags for even more flexibility”.

Some of the Roon & Qobuz (playlist) users have given up. Others have reduced the use of Roon to their personal collection only, and stopped recommending your otherwise great product to others. Probably a lot of potential subscribers gave up during their trial or first year because they are not satisfied. And then there are the believers (or call them maniacs) like me, who keep jumping through all the insane hoops to e.g. get library versions of tracks in their playlists.
I don’t want to underestimate the difficulties involved, but I do believe that at least some workable solutions should be implemented… not ‘at some point’, but short term.

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@Francois_De_Heel and some of us users that have reduced the experience to just “my library” are pulling out our hair not finding some albums under artists. Roon sure doesn’t make it easy to simply find our own music and play it these days.

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Agree. Is this also why many/most Playlist tracks will not display a release date although in Album View a release date is shown above the album title in EVERY instance?

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Does anyone have a link to where this was stated, not doubting it, just wanted to see the context.

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Thanks for replying and for the clear communication. So does Roon have a clear vision now?

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Yes, we’ve had a decade to think of how we would do things differently if we were omniscient back then :stuck_out_tongue:

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Great! So, by 2030 everything though be good to go :stuck_out_tongue:

Happy Friday!

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@RobOK: You can find Brians earlier statement (Feb 17) that Roon is working on it here: How do people typically mark artists/albums for future exploration? - #22 by brian
“Yes, we’re aware of this need and have a plan for it. The divide in capabilities between “in your library” and “not in your library” is mostly artificial, and results from the history of this project more than conscious design choices.
There is a substantial re-engineering effort involved in addressing this, because a huge body of code sits on top of this structure, so it will take a while, but we are planning to do it at some point.”

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For my personal use case, liked/not liked in Roon vs. Qobuz isn’t that much of a problem. Actually, I like it the way it is.
What is actually really a problem for me (who is currently testing Roon and building up the library) is not being able to tag tracks from the queue, even if they are in the library already. (Playing from a playlist that was copied from a Qobuz playlist.)
And, even stranger: If I open the album from the queue, I can’t even tag from there. In fact, Roon doesn’t tell me that the album (or some tracks from the album) is part of my library. In order to be able to tag, I actually have to search for the track that is currently playing in my library. Sorry, but that’s ridiculous.
If there’s a quicker way to get to where I can tag, please tell me.

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Dear Zottel

Can you please ellaborate and document your issue somewhat clearer

Here is a picture of a queue, containing tracks from my Library.
If I click on the 3 dots at track level, I clearly have the possibility to add the track to a Tag.

I tested a Qobuz playlist as well, and I agree that the ‘Add to Tag’ is greyed out, even for tracks in your Library

But you stated:

I understand by this that you actually have produced your own (copy of) Playlist in Roon, and that you are playing that one

Dirk

I can’t:

But that depends on what I’m playing: If I play an album from my library, it works. If I play a playlist, it doesn’t work. (At least for a playlist that contains titles that are in the library as well as titles that aren’t.)

EDIT: And, as the screenshot shows, Roon already knows that the track is in my library, because I can’t add it. That button is not greyed out for titles that are not in the library. So why can’t I add it to a tag?

Yes, that’s what I did.

Here is an example of a Playlist I made myself (based on an Album Tag - Nederlandstalig).
Most albums are Qobuz albums added to my Library, only some are local.
In the Playlist I can add a track to a Tag

If I now click Play Now to start playing the Playlist, and then click on the Queue, I still can add a Tag to a track in the Queue.

Still wondering what we are doing different!?
Dirk

I did a few tests, and it seems it depends on where the title was added from:


Note the missing hearts on two of the tracks of my test playlist: Where there are hearts, I can add tags, where there are no hearts, I can’t.
Note especially the two identical tracks at the end: Both are the same track, one added from a Qobuz search in Roon, one added from within my library.
As the playlist I was talking about was copied from a Qobuz playlist, all tracks were added from Qobuz. Roon knows which tracks are in my library and which aren’t, as on those that are, the button to add them to the library is greyed out, even on tracks that were added from Qobuz. But still, I can’t add tags to those that were added from Qobuz.

Trying to explore with you.

First, I create the same playlist as you do, starting with the 1st 3 tracks, none of them in my library.

Than I add the KIDS album from Noga Erez to my Library.

And I add the same track Cipi to the playlist as track number 4

At this moment, in the playlist, I can add a tag to Track 4, not to track 1-3.


I.e. tracks in the playlist need to be in your library if you want to add a tag to them.
So far, everything as expected.

If I click Play Now for the playlist, and look at the queue, I can not add a tag to tracks 1-3, but I can add a tag to track 4

To me, everything still consistent.

Dirk

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