sonicTransporter i7 with HQP Embedded - DSD512 to a micro/ultraRendu

Hi all

Does anyone have HQP Embedded on a sonicTransporter i7 up-sampling to DSD512 to a micro/ultraRendu?

And does Roon Tidal streaming (Roon DSP off) to HQP up-sampling to DSD512 to micro/ultraRendu work ok?

With HQP up-sampling to DSD512 I’m getting pops when Roon is streaming Tidal but no pops with a local USB drive attached music attached to the sonicT i7.

I can rule out a Tidal networking issue because Roon up-sampling Tidal to DSD512 works fine (has worked fine for months).

HQP Embedded settings attached. The DAC is a Pro-Ject S2 DAC which Jussi also has and works well at DSD512.

To recap: these HQP settings work fine with USB drive music. Roon itself has no problem up-sampling Tidal to DSD512. Pops happen when Roon is streaming Tidal with these HQP settings for up-sampling to DSD512 (all on the same machine)

Can anyone with this same gear (sonicTi7 + HQP embedded + micro/ultraRendu) kindly test this out for me

Appreciated

Haven’t got an i7 ST to replicate but would suggest playing with the following parameters:

  • Try some different buffer values for ALSA and Network backends;

  • Try incrementing headroom (decreasing volume, eg -4) a dB at a time;

  • Specify the DAC bits for your DAC (mine is 24, yours may be more) instead of using Auto;

  • Try the SDM7 256+fs modulator

  • Try setting a Bit Rate in SDM Settings rather than Auto.

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Thanks @andybob

This is for my old man (dad). I gave him my sonicT i7 last year and just bought him a HQP Embedded license last week to play with HQP on the sonicTi7. I’ve never even played with HQP myself before.

Troubleshooting interstate is fun. I now feel more pain for the Roon Team and their global troubleshooting woes.

I’ll screen share with dad this weekend and try these things.

Still curious to know if any sonicTransporter i7 + HQP Embedded users out there get the same pops with the same settings.

Just for my learning purposes (not to 2nd guess anything because I’m new and clueless to HQP) and I will try everything you suggested, some questions:

  1. If using a Rendu, will changing ALSA buffer values be applicable or does ALSA only apply to a USB connected DAC?

  2. What effect (the maths) would using the SDM7 256+fs modulator have with up-sampling to DSD512? i.e. how does this mis-match (DSD256 modulator with DSD512 up-sampling) affect things? I don’t know much about all the modulators and their differences - any reading material I can find out there or could you give a summary.

Cheers! Sean.

If using a Rendu, will changing ALSA buffer values be applicable or does ALSA only apply to a USB connected DAC?

I think you’re right. ALSA on the server is for direct connection so Network buffer is the relevant one. I know my microRendu uses ALSA, but the Embedded screen is referring to the HQP host computer.

What effect (the maths) would using the SDM7 256+fs modulator have with up-sampling to DSD512?

There’s no mismatch here, the SDM7 256+fs modulator (for some reason I always hear that as Marvin the Martian) is optimised for DSD 256 and up. I can’t point to any better reading than the HQP Manual which is sparse. The thinking was really just to change modulators and see if anything happens (might fix a bad state) and this one is my (current) favourite.

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When you output to a NAA, changing “Buffer time” changes settings at the NAA end. But practically always using default (0) should work fine and there shouldn’t be any need to change it.

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Tried all the above suggestions and still get popping.

Even with USB drive music today there is popping with all DSD512 up-sampling, so it’s not just limited to Roon streaming Tidal (as per my OP).

So it’s an overall general DSD512 issue with the sonicTransporter playing to ultraRendu.

I’ve tried increasing buffer to 250ms and startup volume even at -12dB and still get pops with DSD512. I tried the modulator suggested.

With Roon DSD512 up-sampling has been rock solid but I know Roon’s filters are lighter.

Is there anyone out there with a sonicT i7 and Rendu combination getting DSD512 to work with HQP?

Play Keith Jarrett Live In Koln concert - it’s a great album but also any pops stand out like dog’s bollocks

If you repeat play a track, does it pop in the same places ?

If so, then it’s probably a limiting issue and increasing headroom should fix. If it pops at different places then it could be a processing, buffer or network issue.

Try lower buffer values also.

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Pops are random, but every 10-20 seconds throughout the entire track.

We’ve tried 0ms, 100ms and 250ms buffer values but still get pops.

I don’t know if those HQP settings (poly-sinc-shrt-mp-2s to DSD512) are heavier than Roon’s DSD512 filters or not. But with the same chain (sonicT i7 through to ultraRendu to USB DAC) Roon has no issues with DSD512.

I’m happy to accept if the sonicT i7 just doesn’t have the processing power for the filter settings posted above - if that’s what it is, then that’s what it is.

When I visit the old man next, I’ll move the sonicT i7 into the listening room and connect it directly to the USB DAC (by-pass the Rendu), for test purposes.

Until then happy to take further suggestions. I’ve already notified Jesus at Sonore and he’s looking into it.

Even better would be if another sTi7 + HQP user can chime in on their DSD512 experience with HQP.

Sounds like overloads… Please ensure that the volume setting is not too high that could cause limiting. You can see the status on HQPlayer web interface front page under “Limits” (keep reloading the page as necessary). If you don’t need HQPlayer’s volume control, you can set it to fixed value on config page. Since “Direct SDM” has fixed value of -2.5 dB for PCM-to-DSD outputs, you need to disable it to allow other values to be set.

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HQP is heavier, but an i7 should be fine with that filter.
Disable Direct SDM, check the number of Limits on the front page and increase headroom by decreasing fixed or starting volume until the counter stops ticking over and then 1 dB more.

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Ok will try tomorrow.

I did try a starting volume of -12dB and still had pops. And this starting volume of -12dB wasn’t touched/adjusted during music playback, as dad doesn’t use HQP’s volume control - he only uses his integrated amps analogue volume control.

Is there any difference between fixed volume value and start volume value (the latter which we tested at -12dB today)

Oh, so even though I typed -12dB in starting volume value, since ‘Direct SDM’ was enabled then -12dB was never in effect in my testing today?

Follow-up on this: if I disable ‘Direct SDM’ then will DSD64 files (.dsf) still be up-sampled to DSD512 , together with PCM files (.flac)? Or would I need to go back into HQP’s config page to have DSD64 files up-sampled to DSD256/DSD512?

Will do - I hadn’t looked at the ‘limits’ page at all so far.

btw, thanks @jussi_laako @andybob - even though you don’t have a sonicT i7 specifically to try and reproduce this, I appreciate that you keep throwing things at me to try. I’ll only get sad :disappointed_relieved: when there’s nothing left to try but we’re not there yet. Still have things to try.

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Yes, that’s the case, with Direct SDM enabled, PCM->DSD output volume is disabled and is using fixed value. Reason is that DSD is passing through as-is at full volume, so trying to keep levels close to avoid surprises when source content switches between PCM and DSD…

Yes, then you get DSD files upsampled to your chosen output rate. With Direct SDM enabled, you get DSD passing through without any processing, bit-perfect.

Since after disabling Direct SDM, volume control is then available also for DSD sources, there’s no fixed volume for PCM-to-DSD anymore either. Because when source changes between PCM and DSD, same volume setting is applied to both.

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Excellent. So yesterday’s test adjusting start up volume was a waste of time, since Direct SDM was enabled. I will disable Direct SDM today because we want everything up-sampled to DSD512 if possible. Will try again later today.

Fingers crossed.

What value/s or text should I be looking for under “Limits”?

Is 0 good or bad? What indicator is bad?

Also tagging @andybob because he’s in the same/similar time zone so may offer quicker response.

Limits is a log of the number of times that excessive output has been limited. It’s the equivalent of the red light in the Signal Path in Roon, but with a memory. Any value other than 0 means headroom needs to be increased by decrementing the software volume.

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Got it, looking for value to remain 0. Thanks.

Limits has stayed at 0 at all times with Direct SDM disabled. Still get pops even at -30dB fixed volume, listening to Keith Jarrett streams on Tidal (not compressed).

I noticed as I was screen sharing with dad that DSD512 started off ok (listening to quiet Keith Jarrett Tidal stream to pickup pops easily) until I started browsing his Roon library on his Mac…

i.e. when Roon Core starts doing more work (on the same machine as HQP Embedded of course), and CPU usage (and network usage?) goes up, the pops with DSD512 become much more apparent.

When I next visit him I’ll take the sonicT i7 from the home office and into the listening room and connect it via USB directly to the Pro-Ject S2 , i.e. by-pass ultraRendu, for testing purposes.

@jussi_laako - until Jesus can test a sonicT i7 himself (or someone else that comes to read this thread), have I run out of things to try in HQP config?

@andybob - are you running Roon Core on the same machine as HQP? Or separate machines? If both are on the same machine, what are you machine’s specs and can you run the 2s filter variants at DSD512 without issues, with the single Roon Core + HQP machine?

Cheers

Update:

After asking andybob about if you have a single machine or two separate machines, I thought since I’m screen sharing on the old man’s iMac (2010, old i5, 8gb of old RAM) then why not separate HQP Embedded from Roon Core to test what I was thinking…

So I quickly setup Roon Server on his iMac with just his Tidal account for now. No need to import his USB drive for a quick test.

And I stopped RoonServer on his sonicT i7 so that HQP Embedded has the machine all to herself.

And voila - DSD512 playing perfectly fine with xtr-lp-2s filter… Even with RoonServer extremely busy importing Tidal library and images and me browsing his library, not a sing pop…

So my hunch that the sonicT i7 can’t handle both HQP Embedded DSD512 up-sampling on the same machine as Roon Core looks correct.

But why! Do others out there have a single machine i7-7700 doing both RoonCore and HQP DSD512 up-sampling duties?

Sigh, he scored a free sonicT i7 last year. Now I’ll need to give him my ROCK NUC i7 for smoother Roon Core duties.

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