Thanks Bryan, you inspired me to fiddle with Roon until I have it sounding good enough to where I will keep it for at least a year. I can no longer say that one is better than the other just that Roon is a cleaner, cooler sound while JRiver is warmer with more body. If you have any suggestions about things you think I should try please feel free to share keeping in mind that I am a novice and not a natural tweaker so I need step by step directions . Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction and if you are ever in the Charlotte NC area look me up and Iāll show you my rig.
Hey Doc, you seem to have a lot of smarts about this HQPlayer and from what Iāve heard it is what some pretty savvy people are turning to as a means to improve the Roon sound. Is there a place where one can learn how to maximize the value? For example if I find the Roon sound a bit cool is there a way to warm it up? I plan to wait to jump on board until after I make a DAC change but would like to start some research.
The Computer Audiophile forum has a wealth of information.
There is a HQPlayer section here as well.
If your computer is connected directly to your DAC, Iād look at implementing a low noise Roonbridge type device first as obviously the cpu heavier Roon sounds different to you. SOTM sMS-200 or microRendu or even a lowely Pi might help.
Maybe you should try something stronger 
Perhaps, the SGC sT i5 / mR combo would be a great place to start indeed. You will be totally pleased.,
Cheers:
Tom P
I believe youāre on to something there. Only both applications have to be neutral as far as DSP goes. That includes level matching. I have all automatic leveling turned off. I donāt want software determining at what level I listen to a track.
At the point where two pieces of software are each supposedly feeding bit-perfect streams to the hardware I become skeptical. To what, then, do you attribute the sound difference?
I believe Audio Critic Peter Aczel went overboard. He believed the objectivist line (coincidence they use the same name as acolytes of Ayn Rand?) that any properly designed amplifier, DAC, CD player, etc. sounds just like any other to any conceivable set of homo sapien ears, which my experience tells me is not true. But I do share some of his skepticism of audiophiles who hear 6 impossible things before breakfast (boutique power line cords, anyone?). One thing he did acknowledge, in fact was adamant about, is that levels have to be matched. If A is 1/2 dB louder than B, A tends to sound ābetterā. When I do serious comparisons I match levels using a sine wave file or CD (generated by MATLAB) and a digital volt meter.
1 Like
Sounds like you are doing the right thing with the sound level matching, it is critical. Have you actually performed a blind test? Dont underestimate the psychological influences when comparing sighted.
All I can say is that from my own testing I do not hear a difference between J River and Roon.
Iāve participated in a few double-blind tests conducted at shows organized by Stereophile, before they took the cop-out editorial position that getting meaningful results from blind tests is essentially as fundamentally impossible as determining through which slit of a diffraction grating a single photon passes. Some of the things they claim to hear today has destroyed much of their credibility with me. I have found that really honestly evaluating sonic differences that are very small to non-existent is very hard work. At some point, if the music is good, I just want to sit back and listen (and save the hard work for the piano).
The panels I was in were conducted shortly after Gordon Holt proved to be the only listener who could get statistically significant results blind listening between a pricey tube amp and Bob Carverās transfer function clone thereof. And these were things that could theoretically make a difference, not boutique USB or power line cords.
I havenāt compared Roon versus JRiver sonically because given they are both configured correctly (no unwanted DSP) I donāt expect to hear any differences, and donāt go looking for trouble if the sound is good. Also, as a longtime audiophile my views have evolved to be diametrically opposed to pat_bannonās: given a high quality system built up through the years according to my personal tastes, and recordings that can produce magic, Iād be willing to give up half an iota of sound quality (assuming there were evidence itās even necessary) for a superior user interface like Roon versus one thatās a constant aggravation. The whole music experience matters to me. Also, given the tasks of editing music file tags (which JRiver does better than anything else IMO) and cleaning and cueing up LPās, my personal preference is for the latter.
2 Likes
Hi
I use Jriver 23 streaming DLNA to a Sonore Ultrarendu (bitperfect FLAC). I can also stream the same FLAC file to the same Ultrarendu using RAAT and my Roon server (bitperfect). The DAC connected to the Ultrarendu is my Chord Hugo 2 and I listen through HD800 headphones. I am confident that it is a resolving setup.
The sound quality is very good through both Jriver and Roon setups and I am happy with either / both. But there are very small audio differences between RAAT streaming and DLNA bitperfect stream rendering through the systems. These differences are what most would consider to be minute.
I was interested in your description of the Jriver method sounding slightly more liquid. This is probably the closest to what I am hearing. It generally makes Jriver DLNA a little more musically engaging (listen to the choir at the start of John Rutterās For The Beauty of the Earth) but sometimes feels like Roon may be more accurate (the choir voices sound slightly less like angels and more like people). Both sound amazing.
Anyway I am interested as supposedly they are playing the same file through exactly the same hardware and both in bitperfect mode. Maybe there are some rendering / DAC timing differences at the roon endpoint in the Ultrarendu?
Sorry for the long post.
Ade
Before Roon come along, I used JRiver for ripping, editing as well as playing back. The SQ for both are virtually indistinguishable other than features.
Now I use Roon exclusively for playing back from NAS and Tidal streaming.
1 Like
Hi MusicEar,
I agree that the differences are very small and that roon UI and cataloguing features are substantially better than Jriver. However there are small audio differences (not saying one is better than another) to my ears which I find interesting as It challenges my understanding of bit perfect.
Ade
Whatās happening inside the UltraRendu is radically different when you play a FLAC via UPnP vs playing via RAAT ā RAAT streams the PCM, so no FLAC decode is doneā¦ this FLAC decode in the UPnP case is very slightly adding CPU usage to the stream processing. That might be causing unintended effects to the analog processing stages later down the audio path.
With the right equipment, you should be able to tap the USB output of the UltraRendu and capture the stream of USB Audio data ā Iām sure itās the same. What wonāt be the same is the EMI/RFI ā but it shouldnāt make a real difference.
If you really want to know if you are not having a error via bias, try getting someone to help you to do a blind test.
2 Likes
Bit perfect will assure you that the playback is as transparent as possible. However, if thereās a overhead processing such as using DSP, it may introduce noise. If these noise is not properly taken care of and gets into the DAC path, then it will affect the SQ.
Thereās are many ways to reduce this, one such example is to isolate the noisy PC that does the DSP processing and stream to a ultra-low noise endpoint then to a DAC.
2 Likes
ā¦ but before deciding on a solution to a problem, do try to make sure it really exists, in other words, do the blind test like Danny said, and donāt simply assign this to some semi-mystical ānoise gremlinsā and buy more stuffā¦ I mean, wasnāt the microrendu supposed to be exactly the cure for all that ails USB playback, at least compared to a regular SBMC (like a Cubox)?.. Work from verifiable facts, such as your ability to tell the difference between the two streams with very high precision, if that should indeed be the case.
Good luck, and let us know how it works out!
2 Likes
thatās what the UltraRendu is for in this case, which is the unit in question.
1 Like
It is indeed which is why I raised the point. Again I donāt want to get carried away with the differences but it is very easy to switch the Rendu between uPnP and RAAT and to remotely access both Rriver and Roon servers so i have been able to listen to a lot of comparisons in a timely fashion.
I cannot rule out bias. I have a friend whose hearing I trust coming to visit in December and I will do a blind test with him. Any advice on best practice? Should I even tell him what I am testing?
@danny thanks for the insight into upnp v RAAT. I hadnāt realised that the rendering of FLAC to PCM was carried out in a different location for each. I am very interested to understand why I am hearing a difference - I am constantly surprised how listening to music can be affected by extremely small changes in timing and accuracy and donāt rule out the impact that bias can have either.
Ade
I agree. I am reasonably confident that there is a perceptable difference but it will be interesting to test.
My friend is visiting in early December. He is a long standing acquaintance and I respect his hearing. Iāll report back after conducting sone blind tests.
It doesnāt have to be him doing the listening.
Hereās how I would do it - although nobody asked, but what else is there to do on a Saturday afternoon, right?
You would listen to the same first e.g. 30-60 seconds of a song, ten times in a row.
Each time, one of the two sources will be selected by someone else (an assistant) whose moves you cannot see.
Your assistant first draws 10 numbers (e.g. using http://random.org) and writes them down, without you seeing these numbers.
Then, for each number, if it is odd they use the first source to play the song, and if even they use the other source. This makes it likely to listen to the same source twice or more in a row.
You write down which source you think you are listening to.
If you get at least 8 out of 10 correctly, you can probably assume that there is indeed a difference.
I would repeat the experiment at least another time.
Have fun!
3 Likes
An excellant methodology for any A/B testing. Including the often threaten testing of āaudiophileā cables.