So I’ve settled on both Roon (trial ended and annual sub started today) and Qobuz (going annual at the end of this month). I love the functionality of Roon and the SQ of Qobuz, but it seems I’m missing something if I want to enjoy both at the same time. Playing the same song back to back via Roon and via the Qobuz native app, there is no question that the latter sounds better. The Roon rendition sounds thinner and less lifelike. Both are being played back on the same system:
Ryzen 5 2600X on Asus x570 TUF Gaming
OS and apps on Sabrent Rocket 4.0 nVME
Monoprice USB cable connected directly to motherboard USB
Monolith 788 THX AAA DAC/Amp
Hart audio balanced cable
Focal Clear OG
All 3 Roon components are running on this machine, which I know is not the top recommendation for sound quality. ROCK incoming in the next month or so. However, the SQ argument there is electrical noise, which I would expect to affect all sources equally.
Both apps are set up to use the DAC in WSAPI Exclusive mode, which does make volume-matched comparisons difficult (though in theory they should be the same since both are in Exclusive mode), since I have to close one app before another can talk to the DAC. But even if I handicap Qobuz by turning the volume down to ensure it’s lower than Roon was, it still sounds better–just quieter. No DSP or processing of any kind is enabled in either app. I do have an EQ curve set on the DAC/Amp itself, but I’ve tested both with and without it with similar results.
In theory, this should not be possible, as the Roon UI shows me that I’m getting lossless playback. But the difference is not subtle at all. It is almost like swapping out my Clears for Bluetooth earbuds. Is there something I’m missing? Is there a structural issue with having Roon co-located that is over and above electrical noise, and this should resolve itself once Core is offloaded to ROCK?
Interestingly enough, I repeated this test on my Galaxy Note 10 as a remote, with Moondrop Blessing 2s running off of a FiiO BTR5 via LDAC, and cannot tell a difference between Roon and the native Qobuz app. Roon does (automatically) engage DSP on some songs, to convert to either 48 or 96Khz, because apparently this setup does not play 44.1Khz. When upsampling is active it runs at 78x-82x, so clearly there’s plenty of horsepower available. But regardless of whether DSP gets into the mix or not, both apps sound the same to me. Is this because I’m not listening on the same device where Core is running, or some sort of limitation of the 900kbps bandwidth available via LDAC?
Hi @David_Gloff and welcome to the Roon forums. It sounds as though you have an issue with the setup somewhere. Your hunches about what should sound the same are right. Can you post screenshots of your Roon signal path when playing from the PC and the Galaxy 10. This might help diagnose the issue.
BTW this made me giggle, it suggests that the difference is pretty undeniable whether you expect it or not.
Edit Here’s the link for signal path help just in case
All looks fine there. Roon on Android always resamples to the freq the device reports it supports under the Android audio stack so in your case the DAC in it is saying I support 96/24 and Roon will upsample or downsample if higher to make it fit rather than let the Android OS do the resampling.
As for your PC it’s likely that you are hearing a difference. Roon unlike other apps is very active and heavier on CPU activity and this includes Qobuz app which is pretty benign. Roon do recommend to not have the core attached to audio equipment due to this to get the best from it. As excessive CPU activity can affect sq and not all pcs usb sections are the best for audio. However It does seem to be rather DAC dependant though. I use my core attached to my RME DAC and it doesn’t sound any different to having a lighter device such as a raspberry pi running Roon bridge or the Bluesound Node 2i I used to have. Others report they do others don’t. Lots prefer Roon to the native apps and others don’t it’s a very up down scenario with lists of variables it seems. Your not doing anything wrong but separating might make a big difference . I do use ROCK which does cut down on activity outside of Roon as it’s designed to run Roon and Roon only but I don’t compare to other apps as they don’t do what I want , run headless like I want and work across my entire range of kitnb. Your DAC is supposed to be pretty good I believe at rejecting extra noise but perhaps it’s not as good as it should be or Roon really is messing with stuff but it’s a bit perfect stream do not sure how.
Yeah I’m definitely aware that they recommend a separate machine, and I’ll get there in a month or so–looking at an i5 NUC10. But Roon is absolutely not taxing this beefy box (6 cores/12 threads, 32GB RAM, nVME). When playing locally, Roon’s CPU utilization hovers between 0.17% and 0.40%. It does use about 1.2GB of RAM, but I still have 16.5GB free so that shouldn’t be an issue either.
Interestingly enough, I was playing around with the DSP this morning, and found that the Audeze preset for the LCD-X actually sounds really good with my setup. So if all else fails, maybe I’ll just do that.
Maybe interesting for you too in regards to headphone profiles in Roon next to Audeze: https://rooextend.com/ + RooHead (not ready so far) claims to allow to select from several headphones.
You will find similar reports across various subforums here.
Different hardware / platforms / apps.
Root cause unknown.
Some imply Roon to be bit perfect and other software to add DSP coloring. However that would be a rather widespread issue it seems.
Nevertheless, you just joined a great / diverse/ open minded / friendly Roon forum community with great people, probably the best audio forum out there.
Veering off topic sorry but I suspect Roohead is going to feature the auto EQ headphone filters available on GitHub. There’s a good thread about them here:
@killdozer Not off topic at all. I downloaded and applied the convolution filters for the Clear, and it made a world of difference. Now, turning on my EQ curve on the DAC/Amp (as a test) makes the sound muddy and flat. I take that as a good sign that the filter is damn close to the mark.
I haven’t done an A/B against Qobuz with EQ enabled yet, but my gut says Roon with the convolution filter enabled (and no additional EQ) is now the better-sounding option. Opportunity for some minor tweaks? Perhaps. But much closer to ideal.
I saw this in Roon weekly and would like to add a remark in the confirmative. I have tested Roon against Audirvana. Last month. It was using a 2.4Ghz as roon core.
No doubt, despite Roon reporting perfect signal chain, Audirvana was several steps better, in an direct audible manner. More air around voices, more “blackness”, audibly tighter/deeper bass. (I have full output down to 18Hz)
My setup is without any DSP and for both Roon and Audirvana I used the fresh and default available after install. No tweaks of any kind was done. Others have reported the same on Audirvana forums.
I dont have time to investigate at the moment, but if some installs Audirvana trial and experience the same, one clue could be to investigate and compare the respective default settings and spot a difference. But it could also be things like different handling of the USB dac output, etc.
The machine is a macbook pro 2013 running Windows (much better than native windows machines as a digretion). And then perhaps Roon is less compliant to older USB outputs? These were my thoughts…
Unfortunately (for me at least), while the Audirvana is better sounding, it is just too buggy in their remote systems, especially the Android remote is too immature for practical use at the moment. The user comfort of Roon is in another league.
I decided to stick with Roon solely because of those bugs. But I will probably check in on Audirvana in half a year or so. I was intrigued!
The question is, of course, how two bitperfect streams on the same “core” device can sound so different. Audirvana HAS done something that Roon has not.
I find Audirvana 3.5 to be extremely bright compared to Roon on my Macs. In my setup this is not complimenting the sound in any way. Just too bright but it may sound awesome in other setups.
I tried Audivarna on my laptop, Roon core is on rock on a separate server so different hardware config so I can’t compare server to server but comparing playback on the same laptop via Audivarna and Roon in both cases via Dragonfly DAC. Both sounded different and I didn’t like Audivarna one bit. To me it stood out as sounding false and processed I would swear they are doing some DSP but can’t prove it. Will have to connect my RME and do a bit perfect test. It’s hard to compare both properly though without countering for differences in volume and that our it’s not a seamless comparison so bias can come in quite easily either way.
I am also using an RME, and a well reputed DAC. After reading these comments I stick to my own, that the difference could be related to e.g. difference in handling of the USB chip on the particular device, or similar, and that therefore, we perceive results different. In my setup, Audirvana is not bright, but more natural sounding.
I have a newer macbook 19 pro as well, and also this machine has both WIndows (bootcamp) and MacOs installed. They are separate partitions on the disk and I can start either. On one occassion, I found the newer mac better sounding than the older one, but this is a premature observation that really needs investigation. And again, some difference in the laptop hardware could be the cause.
I find Audirvana sounding differently when turning on exclusive mode on my macbook smh… but yeah I agree with you. Audirvana does change the sound. If you like it or not is up to you. Audirvana 3.5 is a good Software with some minor flaws imo. Audirvana Studio is just crap imo… I dont like it at all.
In terms of bit perfect output, no - unless it is misconfigured (usually not exclusive mode may imply the OS mixer is destroying bit perfectness). If you are talking about CPU / network utilization, every software is different.
This can be easily proven by using RME proprietary bit perfect test, HDCD album to HDCD DAC, MQA album to MQA DAC, etc.
For a notebook computer, also check whether you hear a SQ difference when it is charging vs the power supply unplugged from both the notebook and the electricity socket.
