Streaming DAC < $10,000, PCM

Thanks, Brian- more great info.

Do you mean using Roon to upsample, or HQPlayer?

When I upsample in front of my dac, it’s with HQPlayer. While this sounds good, it obscures the linkage between Roon and the dac. It also introduces substantial interactive latency (eg for starting/skipping tracks, volume, settings, etc), and other spurious glitches. While it’s an interesting option, I’m hoping to avoid needing hqplayer upsampling with a good dac.

If Roon has added similar quality upsampling in recent releases, I wasn’t aware of it.

Is this true only when using the DAC directly (eg via USB) ?

Or is it true even if you’re streaming to the dac (eg through the streaming/roon-ready totalDac server, and through microRendu, etc) ?

Sorry to go off on an audiophile cable tangent… I was mostly complaining that it can really discolor/confuse a positive review, when the reviewer says the product /only/ sounded good with very expensive cables.

I really appreciate everyone’s feedback above, and, Joel, Danny & Brian’s great perspectives.

It’s true in all of those cases. I believe that the only way to change the volume is via the IR remote, provided you don’t engage a DSP volume mode.

Either/or. I mostly use Roon these days–for the ergonomic reasons you describe, and because I’m satisfied with Roon’s smaller menu of options.

The options that Roon includes are implemented at a very high quality level–we are not trading off sound quality to reduce CPU usage like a lot of commodity sample rate converters do, and the filters are specifically designed for listening use cases, not just general purpose “ideal filters” according to a signal processing textbook definition.

We did an iteration a couple months after 1.3 dropped that included a redesign of the filters and more options–that’s when I really became satisfied with them.

We do not have as many options. HQPlayer can do endless permutations. We have 4 main PCM filter designs to choose from. They are most similar to HQPlayer’s poly-sinc- family.

To be perfectly clear: I don’t think those DACs require upsampling to sound good. What they do is provide a more blank slate for experimenting with upsampling, since with those you won’t end up chaining DSP processes not designed to work well together.

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Is anyone using a Bricasti M1, or able to compare it to these others?

While it’s a little older model - they’ve kept making improvements, and they now offer a Roon-ready network/bridge upgrade.

Does it compare favorably vs these newer DACs?

I’m asking because these are available for much less than list - eg under $7k, with bridge. (List is $9k for M1, $1k for bridge.)

FWIW, this is the same point at which I stopped using HQP.

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I’ve heard the M1 sounding really great. There’s this outfit called The Voice That Is that always has terrific-sounding systems at the audio shows I’ve attended, and I’ve spent some extended periods listening to the Bricasti M1 used in these systems (often with Tidal speakers and electronics) and chatting with the Bricasti guys (who tend to really know a lot about music).

As you say, though, it’s an older design and (IMO) a bit overpriced. It tops out at DSD128 … if that matters to you.

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Regarding the 3 ESS Sabre dacs discussed above,

  • NADAC uses ES9008S
  • Exasound e32 uses ES9028PRO
  • Ayre uses ES9038PRO

Should I care? (I know it’s not apples-to-apples - all the DAC’s are different…)

I know NADAC merges 8 channels to 2. Do they all do that? (Is that a typical feature/application of all these chips, when used in stereo DACs?).

Regarding the TotalDAC, I got a system price quote from Vincent for the d1-tube-mk2 with integrated server (1 box plus 2 power supplies) –

d1-tube-mk2 DAC: 9100euros
server board: 920euros
DSD option: 320euros
dedicated power supply for the server board: 870euros. [*]
250mm USB cable/filter to connect the server board to the DAC at the back panel of the DAC: 330euros
2m ethernet cable/filter: 360euros
shipping to USA: free
total: 11900euros.

(TOTAL: $13750)
[*] He said I would need the 2nd power supply in this case.

To summarize:

  • the integrated-server option would cost about $2068 more (server + power-supply)
  • plus another $800 for cables.
    ($381 for USB cable, $416 for ethernet cable. Although the USB cable could be useful for any TotalDAC USB connection, server or not.)

The e32 does that, too. The 9028 chip has 8 channels, so I reckon you have to deal with that one way or another.

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Danny, when you’re using the Merging Player with redbook content, are you upsampling in front of the DAC? Or, are your impressions based on straight NOS redbook into the dac? thanks…

Brian, thanks for these thoughts. You likely have a Cary DMS 500 in house any views on that?

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I haven’t spent enough time with the DMS-500 to have opinions on its sound.

Cary has been a great partner during the development/certification process–they make some really nice stuff. Not in the same price-bracket as this discussion, but I was really impressed with the amount of value and quality that they managed to pack into the AiOS at that price point.

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Lumin S1 (quad ESS9018) combines all channels from 4 chips to 2 channels for optimal sound quality. From our engineering perspective, this is the best way to design it, but to my knowledge, the DAC circuit of a certain popular video disc player does not do that.

(By the way, Lumin S1 / A1 / T1 / D1 use a true balanced design, so it’s best to use balanced XLR cable.)

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99% of what I listen to is redbook, and I dont use upsampling (yet). I’m just getting into DSP myself, and mostly on the headphone side of things.

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@orgel also mentioned the Resonessence Invicta Mirus Pro. It has 2 ESS9028 Pro chips. 8 dacs per channel. It also has custom FPGA filters. The linear phase apodizing filter is pretty awesome. Resonessence has unique links to ESS as Mark used to work for them and I believe Dustin who designs the Resonessence DACs still does.

Add a microRendu or SOTM sMs-200 and you have a nice streaming solution.

PS) I chose the Mirus Pro over the Auralic Vega and the MSB Analog DAC. I unfortunately never got to try the QX-5 when my dealer had one in.

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I was pretty much where you are about this time last year. Before listening to any of them, PS Audio was among the top products on my list – I was attracted to the features/price ratio and the reviews I read. There were some other products on “my list” as well (I am not sure, but I think the Auralic and the Lumen were among them).

I found some high-end audio stores (which is a lot harder to do these days than I ever anticipated) and arranged for demos of I’d say five products, including the Merging (which seemed too pricey for me). I took music with me and, in the process got a chance to also audition Room and JRiver for the first time. I also took a music lover with me who was skeptical about the whole thing – she thought what I had was “perfectly fine.”

I did a lot of ABBABA listening to the same tracks, along with some “blind listening” and heard a broad range of music (fitting my musical tastes). I listened to it on equipment that was comparable to that which I own (wanting to make sure I knew what I was listening to and not wanting to start a cascade of upgrading the entire system to “chase” an improvement I heard in a shop). We went to the stores during the week and spent several hours in each store. We visited each store at least twice (and one 3-4 times).

I ended up buying the Merging because it simply sounded better to me. It was cleaner and the instruments were more defined. The wind and acoustic stringed instruments seemed to be in the room with me (especially when I closed my eyes) and there was a lot of sound stage definition (locations of instruments were distinct – both from left/right and front/rear perspectives). This was a very new experience for me.

There was a piece shared by one of the salespeople that had a distinctly 3D effect – sound from an instrument seemed to begin in the rear of the sound stage, float above the instruments and land in the front/center of the soundstage. Regrettably, I don’t know what the piece was. I heard it on the Merging and the PSAudio – twice each. Only with the Merging did I experience what I just described.

I was very careful to audition the equipment without JRiver or Roon (I was using neither at the time). In hindsight (especially now that I am using both, but in separate locations), it would have been better to have figured out which (if any) of them I was going to use. When I got Roon working (and to a similar but not as great extent, JRiver), I realized that the software makes a dramatic difference in the listening experience. There are moments when I wonder how much (and which) of the improvements I experience is from to the (far less expensive!) software upgrade as opposed to the addition of Merging to the mix. Maybe it would be better for me not to know – I haven’t “reverse engineered” my set up to find out.

I am very pleased with the Merging and have in installed in my home system … or I should say systems. I have a splitter that connects it with 2 amps and 2 receivers. There are 8 pairs of speakers attached to this box and the sound from the even most inexpensive (i.e., Niles outdoors speakers) is amazing.

Whenever I am looking at a major purchase and I have contact with someone who owns something I am considering, I ask the following question, “if you were to do it again, would you do anything differently?” I have a couple of regrets about the Merging – all of which I am responsible for.

(1) I wish I did a better job of understanding component connectivity. I have components (e.g., phono, CD player) that I planned to connect to it. Unfortunately, the connections that come with the Merging do no optimize the signal quality of the components – for some of my older (but still good) components, it is not possible to connect them with the Merging. The transition to Merging would have been easier for me if I did not anticipate being able to run all of my components through it.

(2) I’d want to know a lot more about the status of MQA and Roon Ready designations and how they apply to Merging. With all of these products, there is a lot that they do and even more that is indicated as happening “soon.” It is hard to know what will actually happen and if, in either case, it will be consequential.

I would buy the Merging again, though spending even $5000 on a piece of audio equipment is pretty unimaginable to me. I did so because my music collection is entirely digital and it has been ripped to high quality WAV files. After a number of years of listening it through Logitech Transporters, the music seemed to be missing luster. I found myself not listening to a lot of it because it didn’t seem “interesting.”

When I stopped to think about the investment I had made in CDs (I am not much of a downloader), the investment in the Merging (or even the PSAudio, my second choice) seemed prudent. When I realized that my investment in media exceeded even the cost of the Merging, the decision seemed to be an easier one to make.

I am very happy with the purchase. Even the “skeptic” who accompanied me on this journey is impressed!

I hope that you find something you like as much as I like the Merging.

John

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I have a PS Audio DirectStream, as well as a Chord DAVE.

I used to think that the DirectStream was a very nuance-oriented DAC, sometimes to the detriment of precision and dynamics, but between the most recent firmware update and obtaining better preamplification, I now think that it’s just a very good DAC that excels at nuance. Although the DirectStream has built-in volume control, I find that hooking it up directly into the inputs of a power amp can have highly variable results (anywhere from “fine” to completely flat sounding); it absolutely needs a good preamp to sound its best. I’ve had good results with both my Spectral DMC-30SV, as well as this DIY preamp. The network bridge card sounds quite good (much better than USB) and I would recommend its use for Roon. The DirectStream also gets regular firmware updates, often incremental in terms of improvement, but the most recent “Huron” update was a big sonic upgrade, like all of a sudden owning a newer flagship DAC in the same product family. They’re also in the process of updating the bridge firmware to support MQA over Roon (it already supports MQA via other means), but I don’t really care for MQA.

The DAVE is frustratingly good. I want to use it everywhere. It just absolutely nails dynamics, timbre, and very quiet details in a way that just sounds more “correct” than anything else that I’ve heard, but it never sounds colored. The only minor criticism I have is that everything on the soundstage tends to feel 5-10ft closer than with other DACs, which can be a little confusing or uncomfortably close with some recordings. For a while, I thought that I would eventually cave on buying a dCS Rossini/clock combo, but then I heard the DAVE. I don’t really think about the Rossini much anymore…:stuck_out_tongue: Unlike the DirectStream, the DAVE is an excellent preamp for itself; if you don’t have a need for non-digital inputs or other external preamp features, I would absolutely plug it straight into your power amp. The USB input is pretty good, definitely the least compromised of USB inputs of all the DACs that I’ve spent time with. I use a microRendu for Roon streaming and still found that the UltraCap power supply improved USB performance, however. Another thing to note is that the DAVE’s filters are incredibly long and introduce ~100ms delay, which isn’t a problem with music, but can cause sync problems with video.

As far as ESS-based DACs go, I’ve heard a few that sound quite good, but they all do this thing that I think some people call “Sabre sizzle” where certain things like female vocals can sometimes sound like the singer has phlegm stuck in her throat and it’s flapping around at high frequency… I don’t notice it with all equipment, but it makes ESS-based DACs unlistenable through my Neurochrome HP-1 and Focal Utopia headphone setup. Sabre DACs that use the stock on-chip upsampling algorithms all seem to benefit from software upsampling available in something like Roon or HQP.

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DCS Debussy – if it has not already been suggested. A little out of your price range, but not by too much. I just sold mine for Rossini, which is spectacular, but not inexpensive.

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mmm… I want a DAC with a liquid presentation …

You need to listen for youself, one persons experience through IMSO bright unforgiving headphones shouldn’t be taken as gospel.

See what I did there? :grinning:

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Lindemann Musicbook DSD. I feel the need to write a review on this piece of gear. I’ve just been so damn busy. In my room I’ve had the Lumin S1, T1, A1, the Auralic Vega and Altair, the NAD M51, and many others but the point is this. This piece of gear delivers in spades. It is not Roon ready and not MQA hardware compatible. However, I stream MQA from Roon and I’m happy. I stream just about any format through this beast and I’m happy. There have been NO painful moments in setup or usability. There have been are you kidding me moments as I sold my high end preamp because the Lindemann is that too, a simple preamp with 3 sets of configurable inputs and 2 sets of outputs (stereo subs :wink: and destroyed what I thought was a great preamp. My VPI scoutmaster/Rogue Audio Ares couldn’t be happier using the Lindemann DSD as a volume control. There’s no desire to fiddle about with settings. It upsamples even crap to DSD and one would be hard pressed to call even MP3 bad through the Lindemann. It has a Built-in music server (but I’m using Roon through microrendue) and my 25 (top of the line model) has a CD player as well.

Dang sounded like a review :confused:

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