Here you go again! This is conjecture… nothing to be gained from your response here apart from attempting to polarise opinion. If you had heard both the Allo products and critically compared them to the microrendu then I’d value your opinion. But you haven’t and so I question what you are adding to this discussion.
Yes, definitely opinion, but that doesn’t make it less true. I have compared an SoTM SMS-200 to an RPi/DietPi and could hear no difference.
Really, commonsense tells one that since both are based on ARM based motherboards there is very little that can be done to make any discernable sonic difference.
Again, I turn to my goto pundit, one of the few honest ones, Archimago. He has made critical measurements of comparing various endpoints. If there’s no difference in signal quality between two different devices then there can be no difference in fidelity.
Why do otherwise honest and non-delusional people describe in subjective and somewhat poetic terms the auditory difference between a reasonably priced endpoint and some piece of costume jewelry?
I think that can be explained in two different ways.
Way 1 -
- Auditory memory is short.
- Any perceived new auditory capabilities are because when one installs a new piece of equipment, one listens that much more intently. Being in the now, so to speak, will always result in a more pleasurable experience. No matter what sense modality is involved.
Way 2 -
The designers of these devices rely on the same tricks that some speaker manufacturers employ. That is, they accentuate frequencies to achieve the listening results that make people think the music ‘has more presence’ or ‘is more alive’. If that is the case, then to say the signal has been cleaned up is the worst example of cynicism.
BTW - Have you ever compared the Allo.com products to mR or anything else of that type? I await the experiment you refer to in this post -
You’re right about one thing. I already broke my oath of just 2 days ago. Guess I will try anew, again.
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I have a SoTM SMS-200, which most people on forums like CA perceive to be as good as if not better than the mRendu. I just bought a usbridge for a second endpoint. So far I don’t hear a difference. I am likely going to sell the SMS-200, buy a second usbridge, and pocket the difference.
From what I can see there is nothing that the mRendu advertises that the usbridge doesn’t have: isolation of usb from Ethernet, minimizing usb noise, and keeping clock jitter at bay. In fact it seems like the usbridge regens/reclocks the usb packets, which is something that Sonore saves for their even more expensive ultraRendu.
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Before the Allo USBridge came out the minimum you had to pay for a “customized” “audiophile” usb streamer was 500 $, and sometimes much more. A lot of vendors jumped on that bandwagon and started offering repackaged SBC for those prices. Here in France, for example, a vendor was selling an Olimex A20 card in a custom case, claiming he had tweaked the card, while in fact comparison of pictures of the board did not reveal anything…
In the case of the mRendu, John Swenson has explained what changes were made to the board and the software. You can look for the information on Computer Audiophile. It is pointless to discuss this further with Sonore, I doubt you will get more information than what has already been “revealed”.
Regardless, Allo is setting a new quality/price benchmark for SBC based streamers and that is a good thing, for us consumers.
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Well said.
Obviously some will say that all this is all irrelevant with a good USB implementation on the DAC side, and that a plain SBC is sufficient. The debate is endless… best to try things out as you have done and trust your own ears !
Are you going to qualify your statement with measurements:) Anyway, it just so happens that we have measurements, but I don’t generally post them. What I can tell you is that using the same linear power supply we have improved signal to noise ratio with different products we make. So we know we are on the right track. I don’t test our competitors gear and even if I did I would not post measurements or compare things…that just seems wrong to me.
I can only speak about our products. Again it’s appropriate for me to speak about our competitors. For starters we are an official RoonReady device not using the free version of RoonBridge. We feel that provides the best sound quality based on it’s implementation.
Yes. I temporarily took the Allo Digione (that feeds my Chord Mojo in my headphone rig) and I’ve plumbed that into the coax input on the Mytek and I do not notice a difference. But, I need to exercise caution here because everything in my system is new or nearly new: speakers, amps, DAC, etc. Anyway, the Digione is limited to 24/192 whereas the microRendu passes through everything that hits it (32/384, MQA, DSD256).
Anyway, I am one to put my money where my mouth is and to try these products out first-hand before making my mind up so I’ve just ordered the Allo USBridge. Hopefully will have that in my system by next weekend so I can directly compare it to the microRendu. I will keep everything else exactly the same: cables, power supplies, etc.
How many people will agree that all these devices sound the same…not many. What makes them the same or different is sometimes very hard to explain and or measure. We use the measurements as a guide. If John A at Stereophile could come up with a simple measurement scale for all DAC would there be a need for a review where people listen to things. The point of our products is simply to replace common computer in the audio room. If you can’t here a difference between product A or product B at least you have an option on what to use. Some people can here the difference even between the products we sell and pick accordingly.
You know what they say about making assumptions. The microRendu and ultraRrendu both have a USB regenerative circuit designed by John S. One is better than the other one because of a new oscillator that was made available after the microRendu was developed. This new oscillator was then made available to all microRendu owners as a hardware update and then included in the ultraRendu.
Some companies have cut prices to compete with us only to then increase them. Long term these products require a lot of support and ongoing software development and slashing the price to gain market share is not a good solution.
FYI I have worked on and continue to work on several products with various companies on both hardware and software so I can’t freely discuss all aspects of the industry. However, you would be shocked if you new the business practices of some companies.
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I look forward to your report of the results. I know it will be honest and have integrity.
I’m flattered that other are trying to emulate what we have done:) It’s true we have never disclosed all that we are doing, but every once and while there are leaks. What we are also doing is creating an eco system with our partner Small Green Computer. We are making servers based on Sonicorbiter so we have servers and endpoints designed to working together in a compatible fashion.
There really is no debate here. I can measure differences (good and bad) based on the source.
Well there are also, as you probably know, those who measure but explain that differences are not audible!
This is where you need to make a judgement call. Say I have two systems. One with a SMPS which I know injects some noise (even though it’s at a very low level) into an inexpensive DAC that I use for causal listening. In this system I don’t really care if it’s audible or not. The other is an expensive system I use for critical listening. Here I do care if it’s audible and I"m going to use the best power supply or source for the job.
Most probably… I am sometimes amazed at how much effort (and money) can be spend on optimizing the “upstream” part of a system that has otherwise clear limitations and bottlenecks - time and money that would be better invested in upgrading other components. Unfortunately it is quite difficult to know those limitations. Everyone would like to find the best DAC or best preamp or amp. It is not always a case of spending more money, IMO. Speakers are somehow the easiest part to figure out. Live and learn…
Edit: I apply these comments to myself, but they may be relevant to others.
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I said further up the thread that I’ve paid ‘far too much’ for my endpoint. What is much more important in the long run is that I’ve had zero problems with the microRendu since I bought it in May 2016. The only viable alternative for my system, the Pi 3 with Allo DigiOne, was first available late this summer. I could have swapped with a SMS-200 along the way of course, but this was too much hassle I think. I also believe the 1.4 upgrade improved the mR to at least match the SMS-200. The microRendu’s small size is also an important factor for me.
I’ve spent the day listening to my usual assortment of tracks with a direct USB connection from the output of my Intel NUC i5 ROCK server to the Mytek Brooklyn. There is a difference in sound quality. I would describe the difference as a bit colder, brighter and less natural. [UPDATE: I’ll also add that the bass is a bit more ‘bloomy’ too, definitely a some loss of definition in the lower frequencies). I noticed this far more on tracks with high dynamic range (anything > 12) so mainly classical stuff.
I discovered that the Allo USBridge is not 100% compatible with the Mytek so I’ve cancelled that order for now. The microRendu has been rock solid and brings me that more natural, rounded sound that I’ve missed today.
So, I’m going to stick with the microRendu and get it upgraded to the v1.4 board 
I’ve put my order in and it’s now packed up ready to be shipped later today. Who knows, I may get it back by the weekend…
I’ve been thinking about ‘critical listening’ of audio equipment, namely, how horrendously subjective it is. I have been listening to my new setup (everything Amphion except the DAC and the ROCK server) and swapping out the microRendu for direct USB from the ROCK. There is a difference in sound quality and I’ve tried to articulate the differences in my last post. But then I realised that there is something more fundamental going on here. With the microRendu in I’m more relaxed and just want to listen to music. With the USB direct from the ROCK server I try and get on but I end up changing tracks, etc. trying to find something that I want to listen to.
So, I have a theory that a system that does not create any discord or dissonance at a sub-conscious level is what we are all looking for in our quest for audio nirvana. I’ll illustrate this by asking you all to do the following little exercise (you may have seen this before):
Count the number of times the letter ‘F’ appears ( * - the answer at the end of this post… don’t cheat!):
FINAL FOLIOS SEEM TO RESULT FROM
YEARS OF DUTIFUL STUDY OF TEXTS
ALONG WITH YEARS OF SCIENTIFIC
EXPERIENCE
Most people get this stunningly simple task wrong. This is because we do not read a sentence word by word, phoneme by phoneme. Our mind skip words and interpolates when reading. You do not even see the words ‘of’ in this text, because the mind takes them for granted and does not even read them.
And I think a similar thing happens when we are listening to music. Our mind doesn’t dwell on the fine detail and more naturally listens to the whole pattern of sound. This is all happening on a sub-conscious level. It is only when there is discord in the quality of the music we are listening too… possibly at a level that we cannot distinguish consciously but that we pick up subconsciously, that we determine that there is something ‘not quite right’ with our system. And henceforth the cycle of audiophile obsession starts once more.
If we were to repeat the above exercise but this time take out all the F’s, it would look like this:
INAL OLIOS SEEM TO RESULT ROM
YEARS O DUTIUL STUDY O TEXTS
ALONG WITH YEARS O SCIENTIIC
EXPERIENCE
Whilst we can (probably) still read this and understand this, we do so less naturally. The information that is now missing requires us to work harder and more consciously than previously. I wonder if the same is true of music reproduction: timing issues, jitter, noise, phase distortion, compression, etc. are all there to distort the underlying information that is trying to be portrayed through our systems. So instead of naturally and effortlessly flowing with the music (the complete, untainted paragraph with all the F’s in place) there is a dissonance to what we hear and this engages us, not in the music, but in the sound and this is because our subconscious is telling us that information is missing… just like those missing F’s.
(*) the answer is 8.
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