Why Roon needs to adapt and evolve...pov of a partially disgruntled yearly subscriber

I have a decent CD library and Tidal. I cannot tell the differance between a CD rip and Tidal stream on my system. I often play the Tidal version of an artist I have seen, hosted or support as it helps with their income stream. No complaints on audio quality from me. Chris

You can stream what to remote controllers? Tidal? Yes, for sure.
Roon, not AFAIK.
I was talking about the ability to set up Roon and the Roon mobile apps so that you can stream from your home server to your mobile device. In other words, not limiting Roon to working on your home network where your RoonCore or RoonServer are installed.

My use-cases for Roon are fairly straight-forward so I don’t share too many of the concerns expressed, although generally speaking it is always good for a product – especially a software product – to evolve the user experience and add useful new features. That said some software can stray too far afield from what made the product attractive to begin with, essentially becoming a new product and stranding it’s original adapters.

For me Roon does the following:

– replaces Logitech Media Server for managing and serving my owned music collection, and some streaming
– offers better integration of streaming experiences
– provides a superior interface with integration of myriad information sources and algorithms for exploring new music
– offers ROCK, a concept I know I will explore in the near future
– offers a large, active community of users
– integrates nicely (although not fully) with my current generation of music equipment (KEF LS50W)

Anything additional to the above is bonus to me, and absence of such, not things I am feeling

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I think you can with the roon android app along with iPeng using squeezebox support. The later far less elegant I assume. Of course both have to be performed in your own network environment.

yes, I’m talking about external to your home network. Via Internet from your home server to your phone, etc. Wherever you are.

As I discussed in the thread I started a while back, I don’t believe in linking mobile devices back to the home Roon Core:

Your home is not set up and operated as a reliable service. There is a link chain of single points of failure (internet service provider, network devices, storage devices, computers, power strips) with hardware, firmware and software that can fail, or fail to restart after an update or power glitch. (I knocked over something and it fell on the ON/OFF switch on the power strip for the network switch for the NUC.) And in case of failure, when you are away there is probably nobody capable or inclined to troubleshoot and remediate (“is it my cable modem or Comcast?”). Even in a professionally operated cloud data center, the staff is aware of the less than 100% rate of successful restart.

A solution based on remote access to a home service would appeal only to a small community of geeks. And we agree in several recent threads, this and mine and others, that we should broaden the appeal.

My only option is back to home, moving my 6TB+ of music anywhere else isn’t practical. I’m fine with the SLA turn around of a week, considering there is no solution at all right now from Roon. It’s just music and there are other sources.

That said, I could see how some would want more than their home environment.

OK, thats not what you originally said. Yes you can stream on the LAN, not on the WAN.

I can see a potential case where a Roon subscription comes with a small amount of storage. Not for hosting your entire library in the cloud, but moving a subset of it for “on the road”. Then the apps have an easy way of syncing what content you want in that temporary storage and pushing it up there.

Connecting back to home isn’t feasable. And I’m not sure massive storage is commercially viable.

I do see Roon becoming a cloud metadata hub - with publishers on one side (Tidal etc) and maybe Dropbox, GDrive etc for the storage. On the other side is subscribers. One is your on premise core which connects to end points. The other are mobile devices. In the middle is the cloud hub which has external metadata sources added. And internal ones (metrics, other users listening).

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Just wanted to echo the original post - I too would prefer that Roon focus more on the “experience” rather than integration with all manner of devices. However, I am aware that it’s different strokes for different folks, and remain confident that the Roon team are receptive to their userbase and want to get things done right. I have long had a list of my top priorities that I’m still waiting for, which I think will make Roon a still better experience, such as better handling of box sets, the ability to collate albums into groups (e.g. grouping together all the releases in a particular series), better handling of album art (e.g. with the ability to nominate front & rear covers and to display accordingly), better grouping of albums on an artist page (e.g. by album, single & EP, collection/anthology, bootleg, etc) and a few other things. Hopefully good things will come to those who wait :slight_smile:

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Wow, I couldn’t possibly disagree more.

Streaming services are in my experience generally poor except perhaps for Tidal and increase the perception that music is only ethereal and not worth owning.

My favorite thing about the software is there is no need to change settings to get locally stored music played at their native sample rates.

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Absolutely right about the streaming, it is an ethereal, ephemeral, thing, but it’s becoming more and more prevalent and the mindset of “ethereal” music will change over time as streaming services become more and more evolved AND established, AND we have systems like Roon which blur the line between “owned” and “borrowed” music.

As an analogy consider email… I used to use outlook and swore by the fact that i could have a local copy kept for all emergencies. For the last 6 years Ive used Gmail and stored all my emails online and don’t give it a second thought. Do I still feel I own the data? Sure! Am a pleased that I don’t have to keep backing up multiple PST files and worry about corruption, Sure! Am I also pleased that I can search for and access within fractions of seconds, emails way back from 2012 or earlier? Sure! I now have some 100gb of emails accumulated within Google. Maybe Im a fool, I dont know, but certainly my perception of my emails is one of ownership.

My main concern with streaming services is that they may disappear and leave me stranded to re-build a collection again with another service, but I’ve done that so many times now anyway, both physically and virtually, that it’s a labour of love and exploration, relistening to stuff collected or even listening to it for the first time. In this regard I think that as streaming services stand the test of time (eg Tidal), they may be bought out by larger conglomerates a to be tweaked and revised to become more profitable or as flagship loss leaders for bigger concerns, but they won’t disappear, so our time investment in them is quite safe, imho. - barring the ever present threat of Zombie Apocalypse of course :slight_smile:

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Since every streaming service is losing money by the truckload, that’s the most likely outcome, except for services cross-subsidized by deep pockets in other lines of business, for which music streaming is a loss leader or vanity brand. Not to mention that streaming is terrible for artists.

Roon is the best way I’ve found to organize my modest collection of ~1000 CD rips and lossless digital downloads (growing at around 20 albums/month). I’d like a way to mirror conveniently part of my collection on my DAP for travel and on a portable drive for my work system, but mobile streaming is irrelevant for me (too many plane rides, subways, remote places without cell coverage, dead spots).

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To each his own. I have both Tidal and Quobuz, but I only use them to expand my musical horizons and discover music that I consider worth buying and downloading. I know this sounds childlike or even childish, but if I really, really like an album, I just want to HAVE it, OWN and say it’s MINE. :grinning:

At the same time, I’m fully aware that music — by definition — cannot be “owned”…

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I hear you Fernando. The model has to evolve for sure. That’s a whole other discussion, and a very interesting one at that. I am firmly in the 2 system camp; ie I used Tidal and locally stored music side by side, I have far too much locally stored music; to last a lifetime for sure, so I’m not that worried about losing streaming.

Like you say, all the streaming services are losing money because they charge too little. We are the gainers here, access to all we can eat in terms of hq music for a few quid a month, it’s just ridiculous and certainly a paradigm shift change from 20+ years ago, say, when we were paying perhaps 10-20 quid for one premium CD alone.

It’s a weird scenario as the streamers vie for market share year on year to the tune of massive revenues and huge losses. The bubble can only burst eventually. To my mind the likes of Google and Apple will take over Tidal, Qobuz, and even Spotify eventually and offer the services as packages to go with their phones and other devices or merge them into Google Play Music and Apple Music and license them to other companies for use in their devices. They will still hemorraege money quite probably, as the die is cast for low cost access to massive amounts of music, but it’s a necessary “evil” for the huge meganationals to be able to offer the access of constant music to hungry consumers.

All we can hope for as Roonies is that Roon can still assimilate the services into its own platform when the time comes.

Incidentally, I work much the same way as you, trying to mirror part of my collection on my DAP for travelling. However, a new feature of latest HQ DAP is that it has wifi/android config with Tidal on board (as well as the 64GB onboard and 2 microsd slots); it’s really cool to be able to listen to more stuff on the go, where applicable of course. Or even round the house where wifi is iffy for Roon-streaming.

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Streaming services are loosing money because A: they have a lot to invest for the long term. B: they don’t have to pay taxes while they are losing money on paper. C: they don’t have to pay dividend to the investors. It’s a modern buisiness model us average joe’s will never inderstand but I would not worry about it too much.

I could see Netflix buying a smaller share streamer like Deezer. Spotify will be very hard to displace due to focus on Playlists, discovery, and social features.

They are not comparable in speed at all. Even if they were, the Android or iOS cannot tolerate a server level software being run because of what those OS’s are.

What would core on mobile offer? Core allows streaming to multiple end points using RAAT. It allows for DSP.

If the metadata was in the cloud, and the mobile connected to that, it could give you the browsing and discoverability experience of Roon at home today, on your streaming sources (and possibly library on something like DropBox). You don’t need RAAT on the phone - it is the end point. DSP? Maybe. But most phones today (although the V30 is changing it) have pretty poor DACs. So things like upsampling would be of limited use.

I think a mobile v1 would offer the roon experience today against music that is available on the internet (either streaming or cloud based library).

Having another core that is portable (ie another NUC as opposed to a mobile) is a different story. That is what I have today with my NUC for holidays. There the ability to switch between cores could be easier.

OK thanks for the clarification.