The appliance aspect is already covered with the current Nucleus. Any price increase on top of that should be related to improved performance - which may or may not be needed - or to luxury embellishments - which are definitely not needed.
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@Ljad It’s an Intel NUC inside. Wipe it clean and install Windows if you choose.
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I would focus on the limitations of a competitor´s solution which is more affordable: What can roon do that Spotify, Qobuz or Apple Music apps cannot? That’s certainly tough as these are also constantly improving while boasting with technical innovations like curated content or A.I. generated suggestions or background content like biographies. So basically they might in future offer key features of roon for free. Same is true to multiroom functionality which thanks to Airplay, Chromecast and Spotify Connect is not a USP anymore.
I see a lot of potential in some algorithms automatically improving metadata quality or filtering content relevancy according to user´s preferences. Yes, that is a gigantic project, might even be necessary to involve some A.I., but I think people would be more willing to pay and stay with the service if for example they have a premium feeling that the roon radio streams are understanding their taste better than a Spotify algorithm.
Same is true to social and community aspects. If an algorithm of suggesting music would be based on recommendations of other users with a similar profile, a user would feel more like being in an enlighten circle of music lovers. Pretty much the opposite feeling to what amazon or Spotify give as you often end up in mainstream stuff being suggested.
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Somehow, I think this was in the making long before the Harman acquisition. And, if they managed to do this in a matter of weeks … that’s impressive.
Maybe this is in the pipeline? We don’t know. What we do know is that Roon supports Linux, macOS and Windows, and there’s also ROCK. AFAIK, the current Nucleus and Nucleus+ models are still available for purchase (at least while stocks last.) This seems to cover a broad range of users.
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Good catch, meant to write NUC.
As for what one likes, what one thinks sounds best, that can only be personal. It can only be what a given individual thinks. Just as what pasta sauce, ice cream, house color, furniture style, etc etc across millions and millions of different topics, all come down to what an individual prefers.
What one likes is not science. It’s inherently a personal choice and taste, and has little to do with actual objective facts. Conflating the subjective with the objective is very clumsy.
Which is all to say, there is plenty of room in this hobby for those who think expensive custom servers are a scam, and for those who think they’re worth the money. Different strokes for different folks.
The error comes when one tries to impose their personal tastes onto another. The result is only toxicity.
I think you are confounding the subjective preference for e.g. musical style, for one type of music over another, with the objective technical capability of a music reproduction system and its components to reproduce faithfully what was recorded. A digital music server’s technical capability to correctly deliver the bits of a digital music file to its network interface can be determined, and if two different servers are able to do the task equally well, then we must conclude that they are objectively equal.
Now, you still might subjectively like the US$65.000 Wadax server better, for purely personal reasons like the server’s design, a wish to show off, or whatever. But you should then refrain from saying ‘I do prefer it because it sounds better’, and honestly admit that ‘I prefer the Wadax because my pals will turn green with envy’… Otherwise, just as you say, you would clumsily use an objectively falsifiable criterium to support your subjective preference…
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That is true, but reproduction of sound with an accuracy that exceeds the limits of the human hearing very much is science. If you send the same accurately-reproduced sound wave in the same environment (room + listening position) and that is listened to by the same person, any perceived differences can only be attributed to factors that are strictly related to the person and have nothing to do with the price of the machines employed. Failure to accept that necessarily relies on the rejection of either the science involved in the sound reproduction and/or the one involved in establishing the limits of the human hearing. Both these sciences are well established, at least within the limits of what we call “music” or “spoken word”.
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There was a guy on the Steve Hoffman forum who said he had a million dollar pair of speakers that weighed 2500 lbs each. Seems a bit over the top, not to mention hard on the floors.
I guess it depends on what they were using them for. Bigger distortion-free power requirements call for bigger speakers, right? If they were for a personal stereo system, it’s definitely over the top - and downright dangerous.
Well, it is perhaps an imperfect and incomplete science. But still studied and taught academically. Every MBA program has courses on how to brainwash people into “liking” certain high-margin goods.
These choices are often less personal than imposed. As you say, the result of marketing and advertising is often toxicity, particularly when they target the inherent wealth inequalities of a society.
Wadax and the like have no scientific studies using a large pool of human listeners to prove that their extremely expensive servers sound better than a NUC.
Conversely, there are no such scientific studies proving the reverse, that for a music server, nothing can sound better a cheap NUC.
There are no such studies. Instead, both sides of the debate have theory and subjective (non scientific) listening tests as to why their particularly position is correct.
Once again, this is not cancer research. What is scientifically correct has neither been proven, nor particularly matters. This is a topic of entertainment, about a hobby. Like handbags.
If someone wants to spend $3700 on a Titan, or $100K on a Wadax because they think it sounds better, who cares??? If someone is certain that a cheap NUC is as good as it gets, so be it, what possible difference does it make to anyone else?
None of this is all that important. It’s just audio gear. It should be fun. It baffles me that audiophile forums are so full of toxic debates over meaningless things.
I envision a world where a new Titan owner can post freely on this forum about how much he/she loves it, how it sounds better than their NUC and they’re thrilled. And can do so without a grumpy cabal swooping in mass to tell them how they are deluded idiots who got swindled.
We all live often stressful lives. Between work, family, and the mess in our own heads, life is often not easy. For many here, audiophile stuff is our refuge, our place to escape. Music is medicine, an elixir that makes the ills of life a bit easier to bear, and for us, the exploration of esoteric gear and software is part of that medicine.
Why can’t we share different audio ideas and beliefs, yet do so in a positive manner that respects all sides of an issue?
I’ll say it again. No matter what gear you choose and feel sounds best, you are all correct. Everybody is a winner. You get a car, you get a car, you get car 
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Not needed by you. Some people a) want to pay more money for nothing, and b) some more people do want those luxury embellishments and are willing to pay for them.
Titan is probably aimed at the same crowd Harman sells Mark Levinson gear to. At some point we might get a “JBL” or “Harman/Kardon” version.
But different flavors of ice cream (for example) are objectively, and measurably, different. Even plain vanilla ice cream from different brands can be actually objectively and measurably different. One digital audio server (unless it is broken) will output exact same audio data as another non-broken audio server.
As long as your children aren’t going hungry, there isn’t that much wrong with buying some Taiko or Wadax server, unless you’re into the whole “but there are children starving in XXX” thing, if you want to have some bling, although I personally find supporting swindlers objectionable. It’s when one starts repeating their marketing claims that a server objectively “sounds” in any slightest way different (subjectively it well might, there’s no shortage of people believing that spending more results in better SQ) that’s something that should be challenged.
Indeed. I would imagine Harman did some market research and see that there is a place for it. Nothing to get upset about (yet).
But there are, actually.
Nothing wrong with spending your money on whatever you see fit. But the former is just a subjective biased opinion. The latter is an objective fact. There’s quite a bit of difference.
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I disagree on all those points. Of course there are studies. But even if there weren’t, it wouldn’t be very scientific to accept everything that hasn’t been disproven.
I don’t. What I care about is the attempts to justify it in terms of sound quality or scientific deficiencies.
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Studies on what? The determinism of data modern-day data transmission protocols? This entire conversation has gone silly.
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Yep, and it’s all been “debated” ad nauseam.
A request to you all to stay on topic and focus on the Nucleus Titan, we do not need another
subjective vs. objective argument please just let it lie or take the argument to another forum.
The alternative is yet another topic being closed, or moderator action.
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A wonderful exercise in conspiracy theory , no one knows how Roon will pan out , maybe even Harman and Roon at this stage.
To me (and I suspect many of the “DIY” users) the only thing that I want is that the Roon software remains available (preferably with ROCK) to be installed on a stand alone computer, server, NUC, Nucleus etc. call it what you will and all the appropriate cloud backup services continue as is. ie Status Quo.
After all Roon was software before it was software with associated hardware, development of the features of the software are mainly independent of the platform on which they run. The hardware is surely a separate skill set and hence team.
Those like me who have invested in hardware specifically , NUC, can always re-purpose it by adding an appropriate OS like Windows (not a Linux boffin so not sure). I am assuming the Nucleus and Nucleus + , being basically NUCs, can be retrofitted too. ( I even have a spare M.2 drive with Windows loaded rescued from an old PC.)
We were all happy before the appliances came along what is to stop us being happy now , auto upgrade works on Windows and Roon so a “monthly upgrade” may take a little effort, most software I run I maintain in this way anyway (even dare I say it iTunes) It was just convenient to let the “appliance” do it for me like the occasional Firmware upgrades on hardware.
Those who are less “tech friendly” may choose the appliance route “come the day” and effectively pay to not get involved with the tech. How many people build their own CD players and Amps ?. We all hope Roon continues with Status Quo on the software and “the day” doesn’t come.
Until then I will continue to use and enjoy Roon and look forward to the development of bigger and better SOFTWARE features with the resources of Harman behind them.
No doubt the speculation will rage.
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Maybe the underlying ’angst’ is whether this is just the beginning for Harman to move away from other standard platforms mid- or long term. Apple shows this is possible using safe BIOS and or TPM technology. Also, as Roon permanently talks to its mother ship this is even more simple to enforce. Then normal computers or NAS weren’t an option any more. It would be Roon’s way or the highway. Just thinking loudly
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Idk. I wanted a plug and play with my Nucleus+, but I think I have leaned my lesson. For Nucleus Titan customers, more power to you. If you end up learning a lesson, I have a feeling this forum can help.
Can tell you that is a pretty big crowd out there being potential roon users and Nucleus buyers who are falling into this ´less tech friendly´ category. May it be audiophiles or music collectors or music lovers taking their passion in any way seriously.
I would love to see the roon community growing but do not see a chance this will happen among tech-friendly people. Rather among music lovers and audiophiles of the ´pre-streaming´ generation. We must be aware that the majority of them are finding an iPhone too complicated to set up and use.
A server being even more ´plug&play´ and more fun to use is the single best product you can offer. The original (Meridian) Sooloos which I consider to be some kind of predessecor of the whole idea of roon was the perfect product for those. If there would be a future Nucleus with built-in CD-ripper and touchscreen, without having to install Remote on an iPad - welcome! May it cost 5 or 10k - does not matter.
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