Thanks for your scientific theory, but have you ever tried different price levels of streamers with your DAC?
And is a Chord Qutest or the DAC in the Devialet expert pro good enough or to which level of DAC do you have to go?
If you have not yet tried different price levels of streamers, please do so and do me the favour of “subjective listening” as this should be the only thing that counts - my ears and those of the stereo league I sometimes have listening rounds with only care about the best possible sound - numbers??? What for, my ears can not read.
If this forum is about music it should be about listening and it would be of great help to exchange actual audiophile experiences. (Not useless numbers - even if I can understand how interesting it is to measure them)
Such as Lewis giving his experiences with the streamers he tried.
One last thing somebody mentioned VU meters to show error rates etc - this goes against audiophile belief and is reserved for the lower priced segment.
Everyone start bashing- or start exchanging actual experiences so that people have a chance to build a system fitting their budget (which will be more useful)
Cheers
1 Like
Bill_Janssen
(Wigwam wool socks now on asymmetrical isolation feet!)
290
And your ears can’t make out bit error rates. I explained above why “listening” is the snake-oil salesman’s tactic to get the gullible to compare streamers.
The problem here is that music streamers are not part of the audio chain. They’re data streaming devices and as such should have no audible effect on the sound.
If they do, and there are theoretical reasons why they might (though no one here claims to have conducted sufficiently rigorous listening tests to eliminate human biases), then something in the chain isn’t performing its function as well as it should. You shouldn’t have to spend $$$$$ on a streamer to fix a “broken” DAC.
We’re back to the subjectivists’ usual arguments that the subjective differences are clearly audible to their ears without any attempt at controlling the variables.
The more objective amongst us want to understand 1. If TRULY AUDIBLE differences really do exist? (and that requires a controlled listening environment) and 2. If they exist, then why?
I’m not about to let a snake-oil peddler swindle me out of a sizeable chunk of hard-earned without me understanding if I’m actually getting anything for my money.
This will definitely be challenged by analog-minded audiophiles, but it is true. Digital works very differently. When you stream music from online services, do their cloud servers, their switches and cables, and all the Internet nodes and their hardware become part of your audio chain? It would be silly to think so, since in effect, music only plays from the last memory buffer that feeds your DAC’s input. It doesn’t matter how it got there if intact.
By DAC, I mean the device that does the D/A conversion, not the D/A stage inside. It can be a standalone DAC with say USB. If it’s a streamer DAC with Ethernet input, it has to have a sizable buffer to deal with the async nature of the network.
Some basics re USB audio may be helpful. The USB audio protocol takes care of problems that some hardware manufacturers claim to solve by fancy high end appliances. It’s hog wash.
Yes, USB gives the DAC full control over its only job: the D/A process. This McDonald’s-ization of USB (“if you haven’t heard anything else etc.”) is 100% unwarranted. It’s pure, unadulterated FUD. It’s a factory of phobias and mental allergies (“I refuse to use USB”). It promotes the narrative that when something becomes cheap, it’s automatically obsolete and mundane (“it wasn’t designed with whatever in mind”). Enough.
I fully understand what you are saying. What I mean is that the ones who promote the re-clocker switches maybe the ones who bought some DACs made by some older analogue engineers, who do not or little understanding on how networking works, so their DACs do not buffer inbound data or are susceptible to some sort of galvanic noises.
USB audio gets every time domain problem up to very D/A process out of the way. Pretty darn perfect data(!!) transportation. Done.
Now about how to create turnover? Promote - using the strangest of argumentation - another solution / protocol that involves problems that were already solved. And, of course, solve these. Do some good PR, find shady YT evangelists und gullible customers. Brain wash until no reasonable thinking is left and voila - you have a business model. Selling clocks nobody would need. At unbelievable margins. Chapeau.
4 Likes
Bill_Janssen
(Wigwam wool socks now on asymmetrical isolation feet!)
305
That would be too much like real engineering. Simply claim you’ve solved them, and cast shade on everyone else for not paying attention to those problems.
If we assume that this device delivers the very same data to the DAC, then high end means more money only. Not SQ. Because of logic and reason.
Further to me it’s crystal clear that you never took a blind test of your high end stuff and a Pi-based solution. And you would likely fail to ID the high end device anywhere near 9/10.
That explains, no wonder why you fall into the trap set up by the re-clocker people! Mind you, you are not alone, I’ve see some Naim end-users ended up like you.
As far as the high-end streamers, you ain’t seen nothing yet. below is mine:
Pi - no I decided not to spend money on a downgrade but I am wondering why so many are militantly against making a listening test.
I had enough experiences of people who believe that cheapest is the same quality, when indeed it was a different standard.
Read my earlier comments to clarify your religious beliefs on what I have and whether I heard - all info inside
Und noch einmal meine Bitte
Wie wäre es, wenn wir einfach mal unsere Hör Erlebnisse widerspiegeln? Es geht doch darum, dass wir Informationen weitergeben und nicht was wir glauben zu wissen- auch wenn das zunächst logisch erscheinen mag.
Absolut. Aber dann gehört zur Wahrheit dazu, dass es ggf. verfälschte (expectation biased) Wahrnehmung handelt. Niemand zweifelt subjektives Empfinden an.
Wenn recht offensichtliche technische Fakten manche Ergebnisse schlicht verunmöglichen, sollte darauf nur eine Empfehlung mit genau der zugrunde liegenden Einschränkung kommuniziert werden. Messwerte sind schon mal ein wichtiger Indikator, saubere, blinde Hörtests der finale Beweis für oder gegen ein Produkt.
it should be about listening and it would be of great help to exchange actual audiophile experiences. (Not useless numbers - even if I can understand how interesting it is to measure them)
I’ll ask my dealer also for one if I’ll decide keep Zen stream to main system.
