I have no clue whether this is what improves the sound and I don’t even care.
All I care about is that the sound changed from very good to magic.
But it would be fun to compare your Linn against the Innuos in an otherwise unchanged system
A controlled blind test of that would be interesting for all parties. May put this to bed.
Hi Lewis, Hi Bernd
As I always have to wait an hour until I can send out, this will be delayed again.
Bernd:
I agree with you that it could be expectation related. Especially if an insane price should be justified. But those are things that I don’t mention and / or count as it is too minisculous, subjective and too questionable - agreed
When I mention positive changes that were heard by me and others it is more like an atomic explosion and undeniable
I am not in need to justify but I tinker around with all different aspects and whenever the sound improves significantly I implement (my wife sometimes has rolling eyes - when our pillows are gone and lying under the loudspeaker cables - but it mainly leads to laughter on how crazy I am)
Lewis
Thanks for translating and moderating.
I fully agree that in many cases blind testing is the right approach - but in cases the difference is so obvious it is not needed anymore.
Data - yes - but how can we explain that certain interconnects have a bigger effect on one setup than on another setup?
So the ears should be the main instrument in my opinion
1 Like
With science! Interconnects have L, C and R. These interact differently with different components depending on the components input/output impedance.
No mysticism or magic, just science.
1 Like
Well to sum it up: Digital carries noise, and having it efficiently drained away from signal that will ultimately make it to an analog converter is critical. Various vendors have different approaches in achieving that goal - and thus their products sound differently. Even though everything is a bit-perfect world 
1 Like
Only if your DAC isn’t up to the job of separating signal from noise (trivial for digital) and/or isn’t adequately shielded. For competently engineered DACs noise and jitter isn’t an issue.
1 Like
I don’t understand why the DAC must be “competently engineered” (nor how can a normal user verify this) and must defend against any kind of possible “attack”, and for the rest of the components (streamer, switch, electrical network, etc.) is completely acceptable to attack the DAC in any form and it is not acceptable for them to be optimized to reduce attacks. 
P.S.: If I read “properly designated” or “competently engineered” one more time, I think I’ll go crazy…
Reality is never ideal…
4 Likes
The manufacturer’s specifications (if they publish them, of course) can tell you a great deal.
e.g. Benchmark DAC3 HGC - Digital to Analog Audio Converter - Benchmark Media Systems
Reality is never ideal, but if you can push the audibility of outside influences well below the threshold of audibility then that’s ideal enough.
1 Like
Haha yes it’s even funny to assume some of the best minds in the industry / worldwide are not able to just design a DAC appropriately 
Seems the IT mindset is largely still based on TCP/IP which doesn’t apply to all areas.
What makes you think that “some of the best minds in the industry / worldwide” deal with the design of DACs?
Do you have reliable measurements / statistics to support this statement? 
3 Likes
This reminds me of the saying - “my prophet will take me to the promised land”, and i don’t know how, but i will follow him.
2 Likes
Not at all, information theory is about far more than TCP/IP. Some of it’s 3/4 of a century old or more and pre-dates modern networking specifications. It’s just possible that the “IT mindset” comprises of folk who understand what’s going on better than yourself?
3 Likes
Analogue carries noise too. The biggest issue here though, is that the hi-fi industry has turned digital noise into the Bogeyman. An easy sell, because few audiophiles really understand how D/A conversion actually works at a circuit level.
Ironically, unlike analogue, noise over digital is a relatively trivial issue to deal with. You don’t need snake-oil or hideously priced accoutrements.
A good DAC - and by that, I mean one which has been designed to fundamentally minimise outside noise influences is all one needs. Oh, and ethernet cables of the U/UTP variety. None of your snake-oil Cat7 or Cat8 stuff that brings with it a host of other issues.
5 Likes
Why so triggered and insulting on top, @Charles_Peterson? Try to remain civil in the discussion or we see the flag game and slow mode forever. If you don’t want to contribute in an agreeable way, why not stay away from such topics? Thanks!
2 Likes
On the whole it’s better to stay out of the eternal and repetitive so-called objectivists vs. so-called subjectivists debates. It’s where egos clash and battles are fought over beliefs and knowledge, be it scientifically sound or not. While some announce their beliefs as gospel, others feel compelled to save the believers from themselves. Such are the motivations behind religious wars and both sides should reconsider and better rein in their impulses.
7 Likes
@AMT I now have 3 x RPis running on PoE! Like you, I prefer the reduction in the number of cables for tidiness and both of my switches have lots of PoE/PoE+ ports.
The standards for PoE require a minimum isolation standard of 1500 Vrms for 60 seconds, so yes, PoE is isolated.
My test tone experiment with the -120 dBFS 1 kHz tone was done with a PoE powered RPi, so you needn’t worry about noise here!
1 Like
Dunno. I’m probably much more on the “objectivist” or at least KISS end of the ‘spectrum’ but I can’t quite understand why this post got flagged (!?!) as inappropriate. Every one is getting a bit sensitive.
I guess I’d ask each of us to pose the question: how is the ‘other side’ in this debate harming me?
- If I believe in subjective differences as the primary lens through which we should see these choices (I’ll pick on @charles as a recent good faith exemplar even if I can see how some of his statements stick in some people’s craw), how does it harm me if someone else thinks I can’t possibly hear these differences? Does it mean that my beliefs or experiences are worth less?
- If I’m an “objectivist” (I’ll pick on @Graeme_Finlayson as an example who I think has a straightforward presentation of the ideas even if i can see why his statements stick in some people’s craw), how does it harm me if other people hear things (or say they do, let’s not quibble about this point, this is as they point out, unverifiable in ways that drive both “sides” mad) that I think they can’t possibly hear? I know I’d like to protect the vulnerable from the depredations of greedy audio charlatans myself, but I’m yet to head of a marriage that was ended or a child that was malnourished because one person in a relationship chose to buy TOTL cables or streamers. I’m sure someday I will.
I mean the debate is as it ever has been, be it cables, power cords, vibration isolation, the digital realm of DACs, now streamers, and on and on. As someone who can fall prey to feeling threatened by people who strongly articulate beliefs that don’t match up with mine online, triggering a fight or fight response at times, I’d ask us all to pause & ask “So what does it matter if this person who I don’t know and will almost certainly never meet thinks that I’m crazy?”
I’m not asking folks to go after one another for strongly held beliefs. That’s fine. But if you find yourself waiting for the next post so you can “go off”, I’d just counsel you to ask whether you really care that much about being “right” so long as you like your system and can sleep well.
3 Likes
This is true, your Naim DAC is broken, I believe it was designed and made in 2007 or thereafter, especially the Naim audio engineering at that time was new to the digital music streaming.
Even now, they are still doing the catch-up and on the steep learning curve on the art of making digital audio hifi devices.
Even if I don’t have a background in a quantitative science, let’s think about a research design for a bit that would actually answer the questions here.
We would need at least 20-30 people of different age and professional backgrounds to listen in a well designed room. Tell them to listen to something in the music, and only answer questions about detail, soundstage, timbre or other parameters that can be subsumed under sq in some sidequestions. Switch back and forth between two or three different streamers without them seeing any difference. In fact they shouldn’t see anything but the speakers. Do short abc changes, but also on a different occasion do a several hour listening session.
I agree that in such a setting a much more expensive streamer should yield a result where a majority of the listeners would have to come up with adjectives that generally can be attributed to a better sound quality when theydescribe what they hear.
However, the more I think about it the more questions come up in how far such a study can actually result in good results. Do such studies exist?
I would add: even if this study came up with a 50-50 result on a affordable vs a super expensive streamer, or even if the affordable streamer won, I wouldn’t talk down on people who bought a super expensive streamer because they like it’s looks, they want peace of mind, or bragg about it to their friends. Or any other reason.
1 Like
Why do you think the price of the streamer would influence the result? I have a hard time grokking that.