Devialet Phantom problems after update to Roon 1.8

Audio Gear Talk Devialet
1

NUC10i7 with ROCK
Devialet Phantom Premier Clasic, today it is called Phantom I
RPI4 HiFi Digi + Pro with Ropiee
Optical cable QED Reference Optical Quartz Cable

Status before update to Devialet DOS 2.12.3 and Roon 1.8:
Work without any problems, using Roon remote from iPhone, Android tablet or PC all resolutions up to 24/192 via RPI4 and optical cable.

Status after update on Devialet DOS 2.12.3 and with Roon 1.7:
Work without any problems, using Roon remote from iPhone, Android tablet or PC all resolutions up to 24/192 via RPI4 and optical cable, or now Roon Ready Phantom with two add-ons after the arrival of the signal in Devialet via RAAT, but then unknown DSP step and unknown downsampling steps.

Status after update on Devialet DOS 2.12.3 and Roon 1.8:
There is no signal via the optical cable at irregular intervals, the Devialet application on the iPhone says that the optical cable is not connected, although the Roon remote on all platforms shows that the signal is flowing properly. Quite by accident, trying to restart Devialet once, I did it while the signal was running and it worked, but after pausing the music and after a few hours of intent to listen again, the situation with the ā€œinvisibilityā€ of the optical cable repeats itself. Then I tried the same recipe, so while the signal was flowing, but not with a restart (disconnection and plugging in) but with sending the Phantom to stand by and it also worked. But it is also interesting that when after proper work, a few hours later, the same mistake is repeated, even without any restart or stand by option, the next morning everything starts working without problems.
Also, when I use the RAAT transfer option on the now Roon Ready Phantom those two unknown steps in the signal flow after the RAAT transfer arrives in the Phantom are read as DSP step SAM (Devialet speaker function adjustment function) and downsampling at 48 Khz.

There are two important questions: how is it possible for the optical cable to be seen a little, and then a little not seen. And perhaps more importantly, does signal processing after entering Devialet, therefore, DSP step SAM (Devialet speaker adjustment function) and downsampling at 48 Khz mean the same thing happens when the signal comes over RPI4 with HiFi Digi + Pro and optical cable, which is a combination that exists to take advantage of the possibility of 24/192 DAC in the Phantom, or it is only the case with wireless RAAT, or that Devialet in any case does this downsampling, but he was not seen on the signal path before because The Phantom was not in Roon Ready status, and RPI 4 with Ropiee is in Roon bridge status, meaning that the DAC in Devialeth never actually works in 24/192 mode.
I havenā€™t managed to make audible comparisons of the two Phantom inputs so far, but maybe the addition of the SAM function is the reason why some users say that the sound they get is better than before the update.

1 Like
2

I understand there was a bug in v2.12.3. I had these same problems, really bad.
Devialet released a fix today, v2.12.5 which addressed these issues. I installed it this morning and everything seems to be working fine now. My Hifiberry HAT/RPi is now out of the system and Roon Ready mode is working nicely.
I canā€™t address the48 Khz limitation, but it has been discussed widely over at the Devialet Chat forum.

3

I suspect that the Phantoms were always downsampling HiRes content; we were simply not aware of it.

4

during the day I also installed 2.12.5 but the problem with the fiber optic cable remained the same ā€¦ as much as I was happy with the final roon ready status of the Phantom, I just want to be able to choose which input to use instead of one not working or working as it pleases ā€¦ :slight_smile:

5

I have the same doubts, but itā€™s hard for me to accept that three hundred euros for RPI, HAT and cables according to numerous tips on how to get 24/192 from Devialet wasted ā€¦ in that case while waiting for roon ready status for Phantom it would be smarter and cheaper to use Audirvana for about 100 euros and save 200 for a two year roon subscription

1 Like
6

I only acquired mine recently, and I know there is a lot of history on this. I tried switching back and forth between my optical (at 192/24) and RAAT on the same album (i,e. downsampled) and they sounded identical. Not a foolproof test by any means, but I put it out there FWIW.

7

Iā€™ll still wait until Struts on Devialetchat has made his analog measurements and hopefully also one on DOS1 can confirm staying on DOS1 does give you any signal output above, letā€™s say 23kHz. Unfortunately, the Gold Phantoms got newly specified with a frequency range from 14 Hz to 27kHz with -6dB, but the 48 kHz downsample after RAAT transport makes this specs unreachable.

8

I have very little doubts that Iā€™m not able to hear any difference between 48k or 192k sampled music, but as owner of many 192k, ā€¦ down to 96k albums Iā€™m a bit frustrated to see the green light in Roon. So I prefer to see the white and purple lights using an RPi and optical to the Phantoms even knowing that probably the downsampling in the Phantoms is inferior to what Roon does. As much as I dislike MQA this light indicators have a lot of psychological impact.

1 Like
9

I completely understand!

10

Who can hear 23Khz? Who wants to hear 23Khz?
My ā€˜house curveā€™ for DSP starts rolling off way, way before that.
Anyway, you are very honest with your preconceptions which Iā€™m sure most of us have in some way or other. Iā€™m just letting go of the notion 192 has to be better than 96K, etc. This stuff can make us nuts, in a good sort of way.
Iā€™m happy this upgrade has brought the convenience of RoonReady, which I definitely know is tangible.

1 Like
11

@grossmsj It isnā€™t about hearing above 23kHz, in fact itā€™s not principally about the frequency domain at all and almost certainly not about the ultrasonic portion. Most of the advantages of hi res result from reducing the effects of the low pass ā€œbrick wallā€ filter that is needed to digitise and reconstruct the analog signal - and mostly those manifest themselves in the time domain. These have audible (albeit subtle) effects in the audioband which experienced listeners can hear. I have heard them myself so I am quite sure they exist, although whether they are worth the time and energy we spend pursuing them is a different issue entirely.

That said I agree with your main point. For me too the convenience of RAAT supports trumps higher resolution (than 24/48) support - IF in fact we were ever getting it (big IF).

PS @streamy68 just received the delivery heads-up on my UMIK-2 - inbound on Monday!

2 Likes
12

Ah! I understand. Thanks for explaining that to me.
It is interesting because my perception of changes from higher resolution files tends to be that of stage and space. As you say, they are pretty subtle even on my home rig that cost 20X more than my Phantom.
Even if itā€™s not a big deal to me, I can understand why others might pursue it for all kinds of reasons.
Much appreciated.

13

My pleasure. With apologies in advance for ā€œmansplainingā€ I thought of an analogy that might help. It is far from perfect but it may help folks who donā€™t care to delve into DSP theory, FFT, FIR functions and some quite chewy math understand conceptually what is happening.

Imagine a beach with a strong onshore wind. It is blowing waves (sound) onto the shore (ear) but the waves come in quite regularly and in a more-or-less straight line one after the other. Think of this as audio waves with no filter, the waves stay nice and straight (time aligned).

Now imagine we build a harbour with walls going out into the sea and with a small opening for the boats to go in (sort of like a C-shape if viewed from above). The harbour walls are blocking (filtering) the waves either side of the entrance (above and below the audioband) but in the opening the waves still pass through (passband). BUT the waves are disturbed by the presence of the harbour walls which cause turbulence disrupting the flow of the water that is passing though. So the presence of the walls doesnā€™t just block the waves either side of the entrance, it also affects the waves that pass though. The further a boat can pass from the harbour walls, i.e. the wider the opening, the less chance it will get caught in the choppy water.

This is analogous to the effect of a filter on the time alignment of audio signals at different frequencies. The closer the filter cut off point (wall) is to the signal (water passing though the entrance) the more chance that it will disturb even the passband signal (bit of water we want to sail in). The further away you can move the wall (i.e. the further up in the frequency band you can move the filter) the less chance it will disturb the water you want to pass though unaffected (the actual audio signal).

This is kind of inaccurate in lots of ways but I hope it gets the point across. People are focussing on the water thatā€™s blocked by the harbour walls but thatā€™s completely irrelevant.

1 Like
14

Does anyone have an issue similarly or exactly as the following:

Stereo pair of phantoms (gold to be specific). Both have 2.12.5. Roon states that both (separately) are ā€œuncertifiedā€, but the Left one Roon lets me play through. (This speaker had been connected and used with Roon before 1.8 and before Devialetā€™s updates.

The right speaker just arrived and is a replacement unit for my previous right speaker. Roon will not let me play through this speaker and gives the error message (attached here) ā€œUnfortunately, the manufacturer has not yet completed certification of this deviceā€¦etcā€¦ā€

Trying to set up as stereo pair with the left one as master doesnā€™t work. (see second attached image). Renaming them didnā€™t work. Restarting them didnā€™t work. I havenā€™t factory reset them yet but I donā€™t want the left one to not work at all through Roon Ready.

Any ideas? Help please!!!

15

Have you rebooted your core?

16

Yeah - itā€™s specific to one of my two Phantoms and I tried restarting / resetting everything :frowning:

17

You should not be getting those uncertified warnings if you have the latest firmware installed. I also have a pair of Phantom Golds and they work flawlessly with Roon.

I would suggest that you go down the factory reset option, but I understand your trepidation. As a next step, I would 100% ensure that both the speakers have the latest firmware installed and, if they do, you should make a new post in the Support thread so that Roonā€™s support team can assist you (they are unlikely to be monitoring this thread),

18

Weird. I have the latest firmware on both Phantom Golds. Iā€™ve factory reset both units actually and the left Phantom Gold (was working before) still works with Roon. The right Phantom Gold (Warranty replacement unit supposedly brand new) still has a bunch of issues. Funny enough both of them say ā€œuncertifiedā€ with the exclamation triangle.

Roon wonā€™t let me play Roon Ready through the right phantom, the right phantom also has broken factory sounds, like when you tap the serial number in the app or the speaker image it makes that ā€œwhompā€ sound, but the right speaker sounds broken when doing that. When playing through airplay it seems fine, although I canā€™t 100% tell if itā€™s actually playing a bit quieter. I think itā€™s actually a problem the the speaker itself, except for both Phantoms showing ā€œuncertifiedā€ in Roonā€¦

Devialet is also trying to help solve this with me, and Iā€™m not sure if weā€™ll get anywhere beyond another replacementā€¦

19

Something definitely is not right with that right speaker. I hope you manage to get it sorted out. At some point, I would appreciate your views of the customer service you receive from Devialet.

20

What do you see when you are in settings>audio?

2021-03-01 (3)
2021-03-01 (3)2827Ɨ976 154 KB

When I click on Device Info, then the Configure device link in the pop up I get a web page with a bunch of speaker information. The last tab (General) gives specifics about the loaded DOS build etc.
I suppose if itā€™s not Roon Ready you may not get these optionsā€¦