Intermittent periods of very bad dropouts (1-2 second gap every few seconds) when playing 192kHz 24 bit FLAC from Qobuz via Roon on a Linn Klimax DS/Exakt system. All devices connected by wired LAN, cable connection 500 Mbps with no latency or dropout issues. Roon running on ROCK / Intel NUC, again wired ethernet connection.
Strangenesses:
streaming same track to iPad from Roon plays flawlessly
streaming same track from Qobuz using Kazoo app seems to come at 96kHz so plays flawlessly
playing 192kHz track from local library seemed to work fine
I think this happened after a Linn software update but this could be a coincidence.
Where do I start looking for the bandwidth issue? Or a Linn fault?
I assume that the signal path once the track has started is internet â gateway â Linn player without going through the Roon local server?
Thatâs the case if streaming directly from Qobuz under Kazoo or new Linn app control. But when accessing Qobuz via Roon, youâll have
(2) internet â gateway â Roon server â Linn player
In this configuration, the Roon server (ROCK in your case) takes the track to be played from Qobuz servers in big chunks, and then sends it in a timed stream using âLinn streamingâ (Songcast, really) to the Linn player. One possible source of problems in this setup is that Songcast is layered on UDP, and so itâs rather sensitive to local packet loss. Surprisingly, even supposedly solid LAN gear can lose packets. Thatâs not a problem with TCP/IP, which retransmits, but it can be an issue with UDP-based streams. My sense (as owner of 4 Linn systems on 3 separate Roon locations/servers) is that seemingly small things, from a slightly misconfigured router or managed switch to a slightly flaky Ethernet cable, can make a difference in Linn streaming reliability. Itâs not by chance that Linn recommends the simplest unmanaged network switches and star LAN configurations.
One more thing: the data path (2) above can cause problems if traffic from gateway to Roon server contents with traffic from Roon server to Linn player. Reason is that Roon server will pull down data from Qobuz at the maximum available rate. Iâve seen it happen at almost 1Gbps where I have fast fiber internet. If your gateway is also providing the path between Roon server and Linn player, contention is possible if the gateway si not capable or correctly configured. One way to address this is to get a good unmanaged switch (such as Netgear GS105) and create a star configuration with the switch connecting to the gateway, to the Roon server, and to the Linn player.
That is very helpful indeed. I didnât know the Roon Server was sending the full data stream out. Too bad it canât just instruct the player to pull the stream directly from Qobuz.
I have quite a complex network here (Unifi) and will have a closer look at switching and network routing.
Meanwhile is there a way to get the Roon server to send only 96kHz to the Linn?
Curious⌠My Linn Klimax players are on somewhat complicated Unifi-based LANs. Neither has the simple star structure I suggested for debugging. Roughly speaking (thereâs other house built-in LAN hardware in between), the paths between Roon server and Klimax on the two sites look like this
Klimax â UDM Pro (connected to Xfinity cable) â UniFi switch â UniFi switch â Roon server
Klimax â UDM (connected to 1Gb fiber internet) â UniFi switch â Roon server
Both work perfectly and play 192kHz from Qobuz without glitches.
Iâve disabled IGMP snooping and jumbo frames on both networks, as theyâve been known to sometimes cause issues with Roon.
I was beginning to suspect the house wiring between Klimax and the rack upstairs - but Iâve now discovered the same issue happens on a Klimax in another room.
So I guess the suspect is the Rock and/or its connection to the network. I will try running the server on my Mac Studio and see what that does.
Edit:
It works perfectly when running the server on my Mac. So its something in the networking around the Rock server or the Rock itself I guess.
I have a Selekt Classic. Am I still invited to this party?
Actually have a Selekt Edition on the way and a fairly silly non-Linn speaker upgrade in the pipeline, but thatâs another story.
My path is:
Selekt â UniFi IW HD (wired) â UniFi Switch â Roon Server (Docker on a Synology RS1221+).
I have no issues with dropout with 192kHz from Qobuz. I had an additional UniFi switch in between the Selekt and the AP for quite a while and also had no issues.
You need about 9 megabit to stream 192kHz/24-bit. My Selekt, unlike your Klimax units, has a 100 megabit ethernet port. Well within the bounds.
I think something may be up with your wiring or network. Could be something as simple as a bad cable or connection.
Experienced the same today on a Linn System 3, but not on my Klimax systems at other locations. The relevant warning on my server logs was something like this
12/24 18:06:34 Warn: [songcastdirect] [Linn Series 3] time discontinuity. Expected 220, Got 221
The System 3 is currently using WiFi to connect to the network, which may be part of the issue. Roon server is wired. The problem does not show up at lower bit rates, or with local files.
I have the same problem with Selekt DSM + Davaar 105 - L2 SW - Nucleus (RoonServer 2.0 (build 1359)). 192/24 ALAC playback drops out frequently. 44/24 No problem with 44/24 ALAC playback.
Roon Server log shows âLinn Selekt DSM: Transport Updated State=Bufferingâ / Transport Updated State=Playing repeatedly.
Playback of the DSD 128 format also stopped frequently.
Roon Server log shows âLinn Selekt DSM: Transport Updated State=Bufferingâ / Transport Updated State=Playing repeatedly.
Thinking it was something between the Roon server and Selekt, I turned the power off and on at the back of the Selekt DSM, but the problem persisted. So I restarted Nucleus and now both 192/24 and DSD128 files play without dropouts.
Esp. with DSD, but not limited to this, you may get dropouts and weird start/stop/skip behavior in certain Ethernet network situation.
Although, your network may not show heavy traffic, and your roon server or ROCK may not show heavy load you should definitely look forâŚ
Is your roon server or ROCK connected to the roon endpoint via a managed switch?
If so, check the flow-control option for the switch port the roon endpoint is connected to.
roonâs RAAT protocol needs this option to be enabled in many cases. It solved all my dropouts issues at once.
Roon>Linn uses Linnâs Songcast protocol, not RAAT. Songcast is UDP-based; RAAT is TCP-based. Is flow control relevant to UDP? I donât believe so, but I could be missing something.
I believe flow control settings on routers can impact the handling of UDP in the sense that if a network is overwhelmed by VOIP or other flow-control manageable traffic, the router may apply limiting/scheduling to that traffic. Reducing the impact of that traffic can, in theory and I believe some practice, help with UDP issues. In other words, the router wonât be smart about the UDP traffic but might be smart about other types of traffic and the side effect of that might be an improvement with UDP issues.
In all cases, enabling flow control would only help if Roon traffic is contending with other traffic. Unless a network is congested to the extent that switches and routers are overwhelmed, it shouldnât be necessary and is more likely to cause issues than to help.
Just to add my voice here: I have the NG Klimax DSM, came across this thread and can confirm that I have the same thing - 1-2 seconds of dropout continuously when playing 192/24 content from Qobuz. My network is as follows:
Linn > ethernet or fibre to Etheregen #1 > ethernet to etheregen #2 > Synergistic research switch > Unifi switch > Unifi dream machine router
I can confirm that the same thing happens if I remove all the other switches and go straight from Linn > Unifi switch
I will confirm whether the same thing is happening with local files.
In the interest of helping you folks possibly narrow down whatâs happening.
I have a Selekt with Organik and (1) Power Amp cartridges. My speakers are driven from the analogue outs on the Amp cartridge.
I donât have dropouts or other issues with any of the content types discussed here. Iâve tested with DSD64 (local), DSD128 (local), DSD256 (local, Roon converts to DSD128), 192/24 (Qobuz).
Iâm not sure network gear matters at this point, since @crom eliminated that variable. For reference, my topology is:
Cable Modem ->
UniFi UDM Pro ->
UniFi USW-Enterprise-24-PoE ->
Synology RS1221+ (Roon on Docker)
UniFi IW HD (Switch) ->
USW Flex Mini ->
Linn Selekt DSM
Maybe youâll see something here that gives you an idea. Perhaps youâre using Exact outputs, for example.
@crom - you really did elimate the Ethergen and Synergistic stuff? I did not come here to debate the use of products like that but they are the first place Iâd look if youâre having what might be network issues. I also wonder if you have a bad cable in the mix.
I hear ya. Itâs the first place I start too when thereâs a problem. Yes, I did. I will admit that Iâve been really lazy at trying to fix/nail down the issue because Qobuz makes it so easy to pick a different formatâŚI will do some more testing and come back.
You did not show how your Roon server is connected to the rest of the network. With Roon, Qobuz streams go to the Roon server first, where they are buffered and then forwarded to the endpoints. As I noted earlier in the thread, I have two Klimax systems (latest version) on UniFi networks and I have no issues with 192kHz on them, either from Qobuz or from local files. Roon servers on Ubuntu Server 22.04.3, i7-13700 fanless servers with32Gb RAM, 500GB M.2 SSD for system and Roon library, 4TB SSD for local music. Most of the networks are UniFi gear with UDM routers, although both DSMs are connected by fiber to Cisco WS-C2960CG-8TC-L switches that are then connected by Cat 5e/6 or MoCA (depending on location) to the UniFi gear. As I noted earlier on this thread, configured with no jumbo frames, no IGMP snooping. Elsewhere someone recommended turning off spanning tree too, but I canât do that (long story).
I saw a post that many of the newer Linn products have just completed Roon Ready certification and an update is coming real soon. The Majik DSM, Selekt DSM, Klimax DSM, Kustom DSM and Series 3 speakers will no longer need to leverage Linn Streaming but will now have RAAT.
