DSD with ROCK and Topping E70 Velvet

Hi All,

i just connected my Topping E70 Velvet and hooked it into Roon as zone. I bought it for the DSD capabilities but whatever setting i use in Roon i still only get 44.1 khz and the PCM signal is alight. I should be able to play DSD and than the PCM will not light up but the DSD and then the sample rate should be visible.

I cannot choose DSD in the settings menu under ‘audio strategy’, only ‘original’, ‘dop’ or ‘convert to pcm’. What am i missing? Why is it not showing DSD, my old Topping D30Pro did.

It seems no matter what i play (Qobuz) is played at 44.1 PCM.

I’m not look for a discussion about what’s best, just why this is not working as expected and what i am doing wrong here :slight_smile:

Sounds about right to me. ROCK is designed as a Roon Server – it can also work as Endpoint but usually offers only USB Audio Class 2.0 support for that {DSD (DoP) up to DSD256 and yes, DSD over PCM (DoP) is still DSD}. Roon Labs stated in the past that they do not patch their Roon OS kernel with latest DSD patches. If you want/need that, you may have to buy a network bridge/streamer that offers such a patched kernel. You may also have to check if your specific DAC is (already?) covered by such a product (or use Windows where you can install the drivers offered by the manufacturer yourself).

So the question remains: Does it work if you set Roon to DoP (you need a DSD source or set Roon to convert PCM to DSD to test)?

This sounds odd to me. Did you check the streaming setting for Qobuz in Roon’s settings? Did Roon show you a new entry for the new DAC in Settings|Audio or do you somehow still use the old one? If so, try and click to reset the device to default.

Thx for the reply. Maybe i gave not enough details. My ROON ROCK is a NUC, connected via USB to Topping E70 Velvet. (used to be my Topping D30 Pro). I indeed got a new Audio settings page to set for the E70.

Do I understand that the USB(2.0) will only support up to DSD256. This was coincidental the max the D30Pro could handle so maybe the setting of 512 is too much?

I know DoP is still DSD but i would like the E70 to display what i’m listening so i know i’m on DSD.

What is don’t understand from your explanation is the bit about Roon OS kernel. Does this mean Roon is not capable to send DSD256+ to any device?

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This is what the Topping website states:

https://www.toppingaudio.com/product-item/e70-velvet

Exactly, i would like to use DSD Native 512. What do i need to set in Roon to get this? Whatever i set in de audio settings the E70 will display its receiving/playing PCM44.1

USB Audio Class 2.0 (not USB per se) is standardized and limited (PCM 384 kHz and DSD256 over PCM) . That is what you get when manufacturers write that it works without drivers (standardized audio device class using standard drivers provided by all modern and Roon supported PC OS). As I wrote, you can get more with drivers (from manufacturers for Windows) or the Linux community via a patch set for the kernel (that Roon Labs does not integrate) for the most part, some DACs may be supported by sufficiently modern standard kernels.

And it doesn’t do that when he gets DSD over PCM? This sounds unlikely to me as DSD over PCM is DSD.

Roon is capable of sending what the available hardware and drivers allow. For Roon OS and Mac OS it is save to assume that USB is limited to DSD256 over PCM (for cases where the DAC supports UAC2.0 and DoP). Manufacturers often provide drivers that allow for DSD native and/or higher DSD (and PCM) rates for Windows but without such one it is the same standard DSD256 over PCM.
None of the above (USB) limitations apply to Roon Ready certified networked products, but being Roon Ready certified doesn’t imply that manufacturers have to implement the highest rates or all protocols (PCM, DSD Native, DoP). Interested buyers should ask the retailer / manufacturer or better test what is supported over the Roon Ready connection.

PS: The used DAC chip AK4499EX is specified for DSD256 (11.2896 MHz) only, so sending DSD512 to the device just because it is accepted on its USB input is futile as the higher rate can’t be used.

Roon can and does play DSD 512 in Stereo and DSD 256 5.1 with Roon Ready devices via Ethernet. I have such a setup. Don’t know if the same capabilities exist via USB.

Ok, with the risk of coming of as a total dumbass… i read on the E70 VELVET - TOPPING AUDIO site ‘support DSD512’ with newest XMOS. Does that not apply or am i reading that wrong?

Thx Mike, would that mean i am better of with a Roon endpoint instead of a DAC? Maybe i am looking at my challenge the wrong way. I am trying to get the best quality into my preamp (Lindemann Musicbook). It has it’s own DAC but it’s a bit old…

It applies to the XMOS circuitry that is responsible for the USB input but it does not necessarily represent the usable capability of the DAC chip from AKM.

PS: From information found on the internet about the built-in filters I come to believe that the DAC chip is limited to PCM 192 kHz (a frequency often used as limit because classic digital interconnects peak at that frequency). It doesn’t matter that the input chip from XMOS is rated for 768 kHz. All such products are capable of resampling the input if needed/required (even the DAC chips themself).

I’m not familiar with all the different ways for Roon to Play DSD. I have a Roon Ready Streamer/DAC for DSD Stereo/MC playback so I know that works.

Specs for DACs are generally based on Windows for the operating system with a specific driver. With Linux Native DSD completely depends on the Kernel used and if Native DSD for the DAC has been released by the manufacturer or some one else has built support for it in that version of the Kernel. ROCK doesn’t always use the latest kernel but is usually pretty up to date. I could use Native DSD with my RME DAC directly from my ROCK when it was in DSD mode thus missing out the preamp and any DSP. You will likely need to ask Topping what their linux support is and just use DoP if its not supported which it likely isn’t. Your not the first or will be the last to assume that what they say it supports is not based on a limited usage of a specific operating system.

If partnered with it‘s accompanying delta sigma modulator AK4191, see

the resulting system is capable of taking inputs of up to

thus capable of input sample rates beyond the XMOS receiver spec.

INPUT yes, it just doesn’t mean the DAC chip can handle that. The specifications for the AK4191 you show apply to this chip only and I’m pretty sure the AK4191’s output will not send sample rates to the AK4499EX this chip can’t handle.

The DAC chip has 8x PCM filters and as I found on the internet, this means 4x in(put) to the filter and then 8x out(put) from the filter to the next stage – so typically 192 kHz is used for PCM. If the DAC chip is combined with the AK4191 then this is moot of course because then no PCM is sent to the DAC chip, only DSD. For the AK4191 the specification says it has 64-bit 256x/128x filter (considerably more than the filter of the DAC chip standalone). These are DSD times and with the higher being 256x (why are there two? Is this lower = filter input, higher = filter output?) I’m pretty sure this (DSD256) is the ceiling for the AK4191 too (or they would have chosen even higher filters).

To make this less of a whimsical discussion, why don’t you show us the Audio Zone setup, including the Advanced settings? And the signal path when playing some DSD?

Your first statement is stating the obvious, but also hints that you might have been misled somewhere.
All ROCK devices are NUC’s, but not all NUC’s are ROCK’s…
If you are, say, running Windows on your NUC it is NOT a ROCK.

Thanks all,

i don’t know what whimsical means exactly but it’s getting way to technical for me. I just thought it would be fun/better to get DSD playback sorted.

Yesterday evening I tried all settings i could again but found that the display is showing 44.1 PCM even when DoP is set. I did find that almost all of my tracks on my playlists from Qobuz seem to be this quality. When specifically searching for DSD tracks in Qobuz and playing these i see 192 in the display, and occasionally 48. So i think i am on the wrong chase, i read somewhere the number of DSD tracks are really limited compared to the whole library of Qobuz. So i kinda missed the fact there is not much content to actually get the hardware to do what i thought was a choice.

So i disconnected the E70, it’s going back. And reconnected the internal DAC from my Lindemann Musicbook. I saw the 128DSD light AND the PCM light went on. After fiddling around with my settings in ROON i think i can safely say the display of the Lindemann shows the capability of the DAC - not the actual quality it’s playing. Both lights stay on whatever setting i use.

Not really applicable anymore but i use a NUCi5 with ROON Rock installed on it. And thus was in search of the ‘best’ playback i can manage with Roon used like this.

Linux is not support Native DSD on every USB DAC without update the kernel, while ALSA and UAC 2.0 does support DSD via DoP out of the box, so without patching the Roon OS with Native DSD support to your DAC, DoP only support up to DSD256, DSD512 need working under Native DSD, and update is not possible on user side.

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/how-to-install-native-dsd-patch-on-rock-for-my-dac/65391/

I believe it’s been mentioned but you need to check settings: services: Qobuz to see what the max allowed streaming rate is set to. It needs to be at 192 inside of Roon, does not matter what the Qobuz app itself can do.
That might explain the 44.1 display constantly.

I did not know this. Will check this evening!

Qobuz doesn’t support DSD streaming only upto 192/24 pcm. You can only buy them not stream.

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