EtherREGEN versus direct network cable

Audio Gear Talk
95

It just could be that the wrong thing is being measured. Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

There is no need to belittle folks who have a different point of view by saying that they are buying snake oil, that’s combative and insulting.

I hear significant differences in my system coming from tweaks to my equipment. A Rhodium plated wall receptacle sounds remarkably different than a gold plated receptacle… they both measure and output 120v, but clearly I’m measuring the wrong thing…that’s not science, it’s ignorance.

There are things we hear that we simply don’t yet know how to measure. Science is not binary it is a process of learning. Learning requires an open mind.

96

All this time testing. Does anyone find time to listen to music? If you have more than a dozen records how do you know them so intimately to recognise real change?

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97

Meaning no offense, but what I find combative and insulting is to hear obvious snake-oil fraud and deceit spoken well of. It’s an insult to centuries of Enlightenment learning and consumer protection efforts. No objection to having people try it, just don’t want to see others similarly misled.

Not in the audio domain.

Agreed.

Also agreed. But not so open as to be unable to discern fact from fantasy.

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98

Such as? As I understand it the devices that are available to measure sound are considerably more sensitive than the human ear, so how is it possible that there could be something we can hear, but these devices can’t (or haven’t) measured it?

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99

Indeed. Witchcraft went out of fashion in the eighteenth century :wink:

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100

Again you are insulting people who differ in their views. You don’t agree, so they are having a fantasy. I have performed tweaks and I have heard sq improvment so I am having a fantasy, buying snake oil, some sort of sucker.
Not nice, not respectful.
Mean.
The idea of community is to help one another.

Not everything that counts can be counted
Not everything that can be counted counts
Albert Einstein
There were people like you who thought he was selling snake oil.

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101

Just think of the gains that could be unlocked by swapping out the infrastructure all the way back to source.

The mind boggles.

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102

It probably wan’t Einstein who said this, and it’s hardly relevant in this context. The distribution of digital data over a network is a clearly defined domain that has been well understood for decades - there’s nothing mysterious going on, nor anything that’s not amenable to being measured.

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103

I have said it before, but it seems it’s worth repeating: it’s not the bits that differ, it’s the electronic noise that comes with the bits that matter. For computers, this noise has no effect, but when it reaches a DAC it affects both the oscillator and the output stage negatively.

And no, the galvanic isolation that’s part of ethernet does not remove this noise.

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104

Could you post a link to some actual data that confirms this?

105

I remember a blog about a guy who ran a radio antenna and had so much noise in his ethernet he got bit-errors and package loss. An extreme case and you won’t get that amount of noise in a home environment, but it shows that ethernet cables carry noise. He did some measurements as well.

Also, lots of articles about too much noise in industrial environment etc if you google “electronic noise over ethernet cable” or something similar.

An easy way to test this in your HiFi is to buy a couple of TP-LInk media converters and use a fiber cable. If you have a reasonable transparent system you will hear a difference: increased clarity and details but also a slightly thinner sound. If you like that sound, you can then upgrade the last media converter to an Sonore opticalModule which does the same thing but with reduced noise generated internally (linear voltage regulators, etc). This is the steps I took myself and correctly use.

You can also try with a shielded ethernet cable but remove the metallic cover on the streamer side. That way you get the shield to drain RFI back towards the switch, but avoids problems with ground loops.

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106

Noise can be measured. Yet, nobody presents a set of measurements to confirm that cables, switches or other tweaks reduce the noise.

Another thing that amuses me is that some people believe that noise can be reduced by cables, switches, reclockers, but not the DAC itself, when, in reality, good DACs perform the filtering themselves, not needing any prior filtering.

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107

I think they all know about a good DAC can do some filtering, but here people are looking for a cheaper solution by getting an ER.

108

I have an RME ADI-2 fs DAC (the original AK4490 version) which is known to handle digital inputs very well, but upstream digital tweaks still make a difference.

A “perfect” DAC would only care about the bits, but that DAC doesn’t exist (yet).

109

I sincerely believe that if someone believes a blue cable sounds better than a green cable then good for them. They’re happy with what they believe. So why all the naysayers believe they have a moral duty to technically prove the blue cable is no different than green cable is a mute point. I suggest to those naysayers go back to your laboratories and your adherence that position that if science can’t prove it then it doesn’t exist. But please please leave those who find satisfaction and happiness in their beliefs and hobbies alone. They cause no harm to anyone. They experience what they experience and if that creates happiness and satisfaction in their lives then please don’t expend your energy on trying to prove them wrong. Perhaps you envy their happiness and perhaps you should divert your energies elsewhere. And for the record I am a great believer in science. My son is a scientist. However as I pointed out to him many years ago, science doesn’t know everything particularly when it comes to the human mind and sensory perceptions. We don’t know what we don’t know. Put down the bitterness. Agree to disagree. You don’t need to endlessly prove your point. Allow those who love the hobby and music to enjoy their experiences. If they chose to spend their money where ever they will then so be it. It makes them happy and happiness is a very rare experience in everyday life. Their spending employs people in the industry including musicians who can then support themselves and their families. No one forces a buyer to make a purchase and if the purchase prove to be a mistake then no one is going to go hungry. I’m frankly appalled at how some of the dialogue in these forums eventually degrades into point proving. Let it go. Enjoy the hobby, enjoy the music. Life is precious, time is precious. Focus on happiness and enjoyment while you can.

110

There’s no way to argue with something like this. I no longer understand why people bother, although I suspect some just like to argue for the fun of it. There’s certainly nothing productive to be gained.

111

Here’s my take on things and (I’m not going to argue about the EtherREGEN - I’ve said all I have to say based on published objective measurements of that device)

I had what I believed to be a fairly well sorted system - very neutral, transparent, cleanly measuring source and amplification (>110dB signal over noise and distortion), well designed speakers - low resonance cabinets, benign impedance and phase, very low distortion drivers and high quality crossover components, plus >£1000 worth of room treatment (diffusion/absorption mainly around the listening area). I recently got hold of a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 and a calibrated measurement microphone, downloaded a copy of REW and properly set about meauring and correcting the room response.

To be fair, I was quite surprised that the room measured fairly well to start with, but there were a few peaks and dips in the bass and a general loss of energy at higher freqencies (no doubt due to the effects of the diffusers/absorbers):

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Left channel in red, right channel in green

After 3 sweeps per channel (~120 averages per sweep), then averaging the sweeps into one left and one right response, applying auto EQ and then tinkering with manual EQ to flatten things out a bit more:

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The response is now +/- 1.5 dB from 40Hz to 18.8kHz (my hearing runs out at ~16kHz)

I’m now listening to what is, by far, the best sounding hi-fi system I’ve ever heard. A couple of hundred pounds worth of equipment including the cable and connectors to make the input/output and loopback cables and a day or so of my time is all it took to elevate my listening experience from pretty darned good to absolutely sublime.

Forget emptying your pockets/wallet on endless tweaks. Spend some time and money on your room - the benefits are orders of magnitude greater than the meagre investment.

Once you’ve sorted your room, if you want to go nuts splashing cash on placebo, knock yourself out!

People talk about noise over ethernet being the reason they can hear differences in sighted listening sessions, but I’m not buyinig it. Objective measurements show no improvements in noise floor with our without the EtherREGEN and other tweakery such as audiophile network cables, switches etc. And John Swenson himself has still, to date, not come up with any measurements to back his claims of improvements in the analogue domain from using the EtherREGEN.

I’m staying out of these types of discussions in future. They always circle around the same arguments and they are a fruitless waste of time and energy.

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112

You can get a good DAC that doesn’t need filtering for substantially less than the cost of the EtherREGEN.

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113

The problem is, I think in many cases, that it is easy to buy a placebo than to go to the efforts you did.

Nice job, BTW.

I’ve made that and similar vows about other things on this forum.

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114

Thanks! By far the hardest part was figuring out REW. Once I had the EQ filters sorted, it was easy to export the convolutions, zip them up and load them into Roon.